I had the privilege of spending time with one of my favorite marketers, Hannah Wanish, Senior Podcast Partnership Manager at Organifi. We explore why Organifi has leaned deep into podcast advertising to drive brand awareness and sales.
"We're not looking to load on a bunch of shows every month. We're looking for high-quality shows that can be long-term, long-lasting partners. We're making sure it's a good fit. I love partnerships and relationships. So, when I'm getting on a call with a host, I want to make sure they are interested in Organifi. Maybe they haven't heard of us, but they're asking questions. They want to try the product. They are interested in endorsing the product themselves on the read. The relationship is either yay or nay for me when I see how engaged they are. If a host doesn't want to get on a call necessarily, that is a little worrisome."
Hannah talks to me about her strategy for finding quality shows, how she sets up her campaigns, and why embedded ads have worked for them, and dynamic ads have not. She also works through why podcast advertising has been so effective for them and why Orgainfi continues to iterate and improve its current strategy.
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This Transcript has been edited.
[00:00:29] Heather Osgood: Hello and welcome to the Podcast Advertising Playbook. I'm your host, Heather Osgood, and today on the show, I have Hannah Wanish. She's the senior podcast partnership manager at Organifi. Welcome to the show, Hannah.
[00:00:43] Hannah Wanish: Thanks for having me super excited to be here.
[00:00:46] Heather Osgood: So Hannah, you and I have had the opportunity to work together on several campaigns in the past.
[00:00:51] And I know Organifi was actually one of the first companies that bought ads through True Native Media many, many years ago, even, [00:01:00] before your time. So you have been and Organifi has been in the podcast space for a while, but you've also been with the company for a while, haven't you?
[00:01:07] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. So Organifi, I've been in the podcast space for about six years, which is crazy.
[00:01:14] I feel like we were probably one of the first companies to get into space and then I've been with Organifi for three years as of two weeks ago. So, yeah.
[00:01:23] Heather Osgood: Wow! Well, congratulations. And I know that when I first worked with Organifi, that one of the things I really liked about the company was the product itself you know, really the commitment that I felt like everybody had in the organization to create this really great quality product.
[00:01:46] Can you tell us just a little bit about what Organifi is?
[00:01:49] Hannah Wanish: Yeah, so Organifi is a superfood company. Um, and the way it started was the founder, Drew, was on his own personal development journey, fitness, health journey, and started juicing and putting them on, I think it was YouTube at the time, maybe Facebook and he got a huge following. And, he was making these juicing recipes and people kept saying, it's hard to clean up, you can't find fresh produce all the time. What if you're on vacation? And so to keep everything simple and for the consumer, we created Organifi. Which is a gently dried powder form. So you add liquid to it and then you have a fresh juice. And now we have multiple products, all for different benefits, but the whole thing is around adaptogens and organics. Which I feel like is hard to find these days, really good products. So that's how we started, and now we are on this journey to help a million people find health and wellness. And, we also call ourselves a self-development company that happens to sell juices. So Organifi itself is super into, self-development personal development, health, and wellness for the employees, but then also implementing that into customers' lives as well.
[00:03:05] Heather Osgood: That is so awesome. What a fun company to work for to have that environment to be in. That sounds really cool.
[00:03:10] Hannah Wanish: Yes. It's a great culture. It's like a little family, which is awesome. Which plays into the partnerships that we try to incorporate into the brand.
[00:03:19] Heather Osgood: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It just seems like such a natural extension, of course, the value of podcast advertising is that influencer marketing piece where you have folks who are already talking about maybe self-help or health or, just different ways to improve. And then they can very easily transition into talking about Organifi and the benefits that they've seen, the hosts in their lives with the product.
[00:03:45] Is that why you feel like it works so well for you?
[00:03:49] Hannah Wanish: I would say so. Yes, like are definitely the partners that, had the longest, and the partners that do the best are those types of podcasts, health, [00:04:00] wellness fitness entrepreneurs, so even like helping yourself on the financial side of things or business side.
[00:04:06] So it all comes down to that. Yes. Like the personal development, self-development, wellness aspect, I would say is definitely what helps. And we are, trying to venture out into other genres as well. but that has always been where we started. And now we're trying to incorporate more as we go on.
[00:04:24] Heather Osgood: Awesome. And I love to hear that because I do think that when advertisers are starting out, that it's good to target the genre where your product is. But ultimately, I think, and we'll get to this further on in the conversation about the scale, I think there is something powerful just about reaching your target audience, right?
[00:04:44] And it might not matter as much, the type of content as long as you're reaching the people who are going to purchase from you. But I feel like that really leads me to the question of how do you find podcasts? Because I think that can be a real barrier often for [00:05:00] advertisers is like, okay, there's a bazillion podcasts out there.
[00:05:04] How do I go through and find shows that are going to be quality shows that are gonna have sizable audiences that are gonna do things essentially the way I want them to. So what has that journey been like for you?
[00:05:13] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. So when I got into the space, I was trying, my entire day was essentially trying to find podcasts and the contacts.
[00:05:21] And I was like, how is there not a platform that will help this? And then I remember like literally that week we got an intro to Magellan. And so we use Magellan AI which is software that essentially helps us find podcasts. We can also look at competitive data or other companies. We can look at those podcasts, hosts analytics if it's available, but then the most important aspect of that is getting intro directly to a podcast or whoever represents them.
[00:05:49] And that email address was so hard for me to find. So that has been definitely the best way and easiest way. So if you're not familiar with that, definitely check out Magellan for implementing that if you are looking to grow. That is like my number one recommendation, is my entire time previously was spent looking for partners and now, that time is cut more than half. So that has been huge for us.
[00:06:17] Heather Osgood: Amazing. And we did interview Cameron from Magellan on this podcast. So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and check that out. But, yes I would. Those sorts of resources, because, gosh, I remember when I first got into podcasting, I did the same thing and it is amazing how difficult it is to reach podcasters.
[00:06:36] So if you're a podcaster listening, make your contact information easier to find, right.
[00:06:41] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. I was messaging people on Instagram all day long and typically now, it might be an influencer, but then they also have a podcast page. It was just so hard to keep in touch. So, with Magellan, everything is stored in there and it's super easy. So, that has been a lifesaver for our team.
[00:06:58] Heather Osgood: That's awesome. Okay so [00:07:00] that's how you go about finding podcasts and then do you have a specific strategy that you use to test shows out? So I would presume you have your base of shows that works well for you, and I guess that's a good place to start. So in terms of perhaps the quantity of podcasts that you're working on, you have a base of shows that are performing well for you right now, is that the case?
[00:07:23] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people too, wouldn't expect us to have a lot of shows, which is part of my strategy.
[00:07:30] Our number one priority and like it's one of our core values is to nourish relationships. Even on my zoom thing, you'll see my name and there are relationships. So it's super important for us to keep those partners as part of the Organifi fam, making sure that we're always taking care of them. That's like what really builds a good relationship and partnership.
[00:07:50] So we don't have that many shows. So the strategy, which is like with our budget, we're testing shows and we're testing probably more than I think the average[00:08:00] brand would. But that's just because that's what works, and for us, we're not looking to load on a bunch of shows every month. We're looking for high-quality shows that can be long-term, long-lasting partners.
[00:08:10] The strategy there would be, we're making sure it's a good fit and like the number one thing that I think people forget and it's something like, I love partnerships and relationships. So when I'm getting on a call with a host, I want to make sure that they are interested in Organifi. Maybe they haven't heard of us, but they're asking questions.
[00:08:28] They want to try the product. They are interested in endorsing the product themselves on the read. That relationship right there is either yay or nay for me is seeing how engaged they are. If a host doesn't want to necessarily get on a call, that is a little worrisome. Obviously like busy, but if they eventually don't find it to be a priority, that's a red flag, but the relationship itself and the first contact is how we gauge how to move forward. And so our testing strategy is we usually do four episodes. We've even done six to eight, but we never do less than three. So if a show doesn't have the availability, we don't see that correlates with the results that we are looking for.
[00:09:17] Heather Osgood: Excellent.
[00:09:19] Hannah Wanish: And our goal is to do once a week, ideally.
[00:09:22] and obviously as the space gets more popular, it's harder to get that because shows are selling out. But that's also part of the strategy is like, if we can't get it more than twice a month, then maybe it's just not the right time and not a good fit at that moment.
[00:09:36] Heather Osgood: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So one question that I definitely have to ask is about dynamic versus embedded. So, to my knowledge, you are a big fan of embedded ads. Can you talk to us about that?
[00:09:50] Hannah Wanish: Yes. So baked-in ads are what we go for. As you know, we've talked, there might be a perfect show and it's dynamic and we've tested dynamic insertion, and it just hasn't worked from our perspective and we've tested quite a bit different genres, our perfect genre or a perfect show and it just hasn't worked.
[00:10:11] And what we're looking for is essentially a ROAS so some people are interested in brand awareness as a company, we are more interested in the performance when it comes to revenue. So for us dynamic, hasn't worked Baked-in is just... has worked time and time again. that's where we yield results.
[00:10:32] So that is what we've kind of stuck with. And yes, we are very interested in testing different strategies and trying and failing. But that is something that it's just kind of failed more than it has worked. So we keep that. Another thing with baked-in ads is if you have a host, let's say back in January of 2021 we can still see those results happening. And so then for us, we know, okay, it's driving revenue. Let's resign them a year later, which I just did the other day, and now, you're essentially getting that forever. So, it helps with the long tail drag of that success and it can eventually turn into a great partnership if you have that baked-in ad.
[00:11:16] Heather Osgood: I could totally see that. The long tail is, irrefutably valuable to advertisers, and so I think that is definitely what the baked-in embedded ads provide that dynamic doesn't. I was just reading the IAB's 2020 study that they did about podcast revenue, at least in 2020, and I want to say 35% of the advertisers were doing embedded and the rest were dynamic, which I was pretty shocked about. So yeah, dynamic is definitely increasing significantly, and so I am I'm right there with you in that I think we need a good strategy to make dynamic as effective as embedded. So I think we, as an industry, need to keep testing away to see how we can make that, you know, get that effectiveness and maybe it has to do with reach, maybe it has to do with rate. I think that, in some instances, it maybe hasn't been perfected, and really the way I look at it is it's relatively new if you look at the whole lifespan of podcasts, embedded ads have been happening for years, probably since 2004, but really dynamic has gained popularity, I would say probably in the last two to three years. So I think it's not surprising to see that dynamic. Maybe isn't performing as well, because I don't think it's been tested for as long.
[00:12:36] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. One thing that I think that dynamic is great for is that if you have a seasonal product or if you are maybe going through a rebranding and now that essentially just goes away. So that is something that we're testing now that we have more seasonal products is maybe that is the route to go for more seasonal tests. But yeah, we haven't seen the benefits yet, but it doesn't mean that they're not there and we'll continue to try and test, but right now, what works really well, is that baked-in.
[00:13:05] Heather Osgood: Yeah. Excellent.
[00:13:06] So what I also love about what you're doing is I certainly have worked with agencies and advertisers in the past were like, "I want to run one ad, and if that one ad doesn't work, then we're not going to do it again." And I always just feel like, "Oh my gosh, if I have never heard of your product before, and I hear one ad, is that really going to move the needle?" I just don't see one ad really being effective, and it sounds like you haven't found that either.
[00:13:32] Hannah Wanish: No. And it's also, again, the relationship with our partners is probably the most important aspect of what I do. And that is something that I'm focusing solely on this year is just building those relationships. And for me, if I was a host, there's no like, that is so much work to do for them, and that shows that you're not as a brand I would assume, if I was host, that brand is just not as invested in the relationship. So for us, we want to make sure that our partners feel like we are invested and we want to test and we want to make it work. And I do say a lot of times, If we see some results and it's not what we're looking for we will retest. And that is my job, in my role, to make sure that I'm doing everything I can to look at the results, see what I can see, listen to the reads, try to tweak them, working on the copy to make sure that we're doing everything you can as a brand to make that partnership work. It's essentially like just investing.
[00:14:26] We want to invest really well in what is working and that is working. And it's part of that relationship as well. I actually was listening to the episode you did with Martha from Helix. And she said, "If you go to a nice restaurant and can't tip enough, it's the same concept." You should be putting a lot of money into these partnerships and doing everything you can, and those are going to yield the most results. We've tested one, when we were working with an agency back in the day and it just, it does, it doesn't work. People need that repetition. People need to make sure that it's not just a one-off. They want to hear it multiple times and know that that's an authentic product that, that host is enjoying.
[00:15:06] So, yeah, so I would do more and some test runs. Four to eight, to even more episodes because, we are seeing somewhat of a result that we want to turn into a long-term relationship, eventually.
[00:15:21] Heather Osgood: I respect that so much, and I think that you are spot on. I don't believe that brands understand the two-way relationship oftentimes, and when we're talking about again the host-read endorsement ads. If I, as a host am going to get up and say, I love this product. It's amazing if I'm actually going to really try it and, be objective about the product and think about how I like it and how it's affecting me or my life, you know, am I really going to do that for one ad?
[00:15:52] It's probably not right. I'm probably just going to phone it in. And so I think by the brand investing in the host, [00:16:00] it really shows the host that you care about them as much as you want them to care about you. And if you can create that two-way street, there's so much power in that. And if you're not doing that, I think you're really missing out.
[00:16:13] Hannah Wanish: Absolutely yeah that's the number one when I was thinking of what is advice I would have. The number one thing is that relationship. Nourishing that relationship, and that comes down to so many factors, but the number one, which is the brand invests in the show and they'll want to invest in you.
[00:16:27] And that comes down to buying more ads and making it work. So if you can't afford one or you can't afford four ads, but then maybe you shouldn't go with the one, but I'm not sure how that works with other companies, it's just what's worked for us and has worked really well, and that is including four episodes or more.
[00:16:47] Heather Osgood: The other thing that you do that I've seen other successful advertisers do that I would highly encourage, is listening to the ads. And I know that it's a lot of work. If you've got a bunch of podcasts or advertising on, I know it's a lot of work, but what I love in my experience working with you is when you come back and you're like, I really like when the host said X, Y, and Z, but this part wasn't as good. Maybe we could go back with these improved talking points. And I can tell I'm okay, she listened to the ad. She actually knows what she's talking about. So can you tell us a little bit about that?
[00:17:21] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. So again, shameless Magellan plug, but they have airchecks where you can go in and you can upload all your partners and listen to them weekly. So, before that, I was basically going in and listening to episodes, and we, I mean, we have a decent amount of partners. I was managing about 30, so it takes a lot of time. So that's been really helpful. But yeah, one thing too, with that, something from a brand perspective, which I will say is I've had some partners do the completely wrong landing page. And so I wouldn't know that unless I'm listening, so they'd say go to whatever, and I go to that and like, oh, that's [00:18:00] not what we created so it's a dead link. We've got a lot of make-good ads because of listening. So that's number one thing is that you can go back to that post and say like, Hey, I'm so sorry, but like, it was a completely wrong landing page. Do you mind redoing it?
[00:18:14] And I have a completely free make good. So you can make a lot of money back by just listening and making sure it's what you aligned within your contract and your agreement.
[00:18:23] And then also, yeah, I've had some posts say. They have the red juice at night and red juice is like your afternoon pick me up. So it's going to give you energy. So you don't want it at night, to each their own, you could totally have it at night if you're if you want, but, that's not how we want to advertise it to the customers because that's not what it is best used for. So in that I can say like that wouldn't be a make good, but that can be just a conversation post like, Hey, actually like try this, or here's a product that is great for nighttime. That's our gold great for recovery so try that. And it just opens up a conversation, but,[00:19:00] absolutely listened to the ad reads. It does take a little bit of time, but, I was doing it before by not using Magellan. So if I can do that, you can do it with Magellan.
[00:19:12] Heather Osgood: Yeah, no for sure. I feel like absolutely having those airchecks through a platform like Magellan really is super helpful because trying to find them on your own is a lot of work. , but listening to them is super, super important, and super valuable. And I think that brings us to the next step, which is talking points.
[00:19:30] So how do you go about crafting talking points? And, I should maybe know the answer to this, but do you craft talking points for each individual host differently, or how do you approach talking points?
[00:19:45] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. So I think too, that comes back to that first initial conversation with the host of asking them questions about the product, because our talking points doc is long, which I know it's something we're working on to shortening it up because we have a lot of products, but [00:20:00] for me, I want to make sure that the host is using the products that they would like to use. One thing we do at Organifi is we don't make our partners say a specific ad or product. We send them a lot of products to try to test out, to see what they like, and then we want them to endorse the products that they do enjoy.
[00:20:17] So from there on a call, I would say like, Also, I give my advice of like, Hey, you can add green juice in the morning, but I do have water half almond milk. I actually put it in my coffee to have a mint coffee. So there are multiple ways. So I like to get on a call first to let them know, these are different ways you can have it because once they get the talking points, it's very loose.
[00:20:38] Again, we like to give our partners the freedom to talk about what they want, as long as they fit within those guidelines. And they're essentially just key ingredients. Key benefits and we did recently have our copy team, which is their incredible come up with a few essentially better ad reads or not better, but more aligned ad reads for the partners [00:21:00] that they can use if they want to speak about certain products. But I will say it's hard because I go back and forth with this is you don't want to give them too much that they're overwhelmed by it, but you also don't want to make them say like hey, here are three products you can choose from because maybe they don't like that. And they like the fourth, everyone has different tastes buds, and we want to make sure that they aren't doing the product because their audience is going to resonate with that and know that that's authentic. So.
[00:21:26] Heather Osgood: Mmhmm mhmm yeah
[00:21:27] Hannah Wanish: I think went to something we are working on, but our dock right now is essentially just key benefits. And I do talk to a lot of brands that like to give the freedom as well to their partners of allowing them to say what they want, as long as they're within those specific guidelines.
[00:21:42] Heather Osgood: Yeah.
[00:21:43] I also have found that some podcasters are really good at that and some are not. So I don't know what your experience has been. I think that the more mature podcasters are just used to it. They understand the process, they [00:22:00] understand what they should be doing. If you get somebody who's really new to ad creation, it might just be a different scenario.
[00:22:06] So, I do think that it's a case by case, but I, I appreciate giving the hosts the freedom because ultimately, we really want that organic authentic read, and if you give somebody something that's too structured or too scripted, then it's really hard for them to bring an authentic voice to the read. Do you agree?
[00:22:27] Hannah Wanish: I agree. And I think too, I always say like, here's the talking points doc, and a few examples that you can pull from. If you need more guidance, please let me know, and our copy team can help you facilitate that ad read and that conversation if you need more support. And I'd say nine out of 10, they just use the talking points and go for it themselves, and I think they appreciate that freedom and that's the feedback I have gotten from posts being like, oh, I love that I can create this myself. One thing I will say is we typically have partners in the health and wellness space or somewhat of a background. So [00:23:00] they are great at creating ad reads because they like to look at the science behind it.
[00:23:05] They're doing their own research. They're putting in all that effort, to create this ad reads for their audience that makes sense. When we do go out into different genres, let's say like true crime or comedy, we give them more support if they need it, because we want to make sure that they're not like overwhelmed by this doc that is talking about all these ingredients.
[00:23:24] So it's important to know as a brand, what your hosts needs, and align with them on that.
[00:23:30] Heather Osgood: That is so smart. I really loved that because if you are giving the product, I know one of the advertisers that you are one of the podcasts you've advertised on with us, she used to own a health food store?
[00:23:41] So she's probably going to be more adept at creating an ad because she already has maybe a background in the health and wellness industry versus somebody, like you said, who's in true crime. Maybe they've never been actually led a healthy lifestyle it's possible. Yeah, I'm sure different hosts [00:24:00] and I could see different genres and may not respond well to your talking point. So that's really interesting,
[00:24:04] Hannah Wanish: Yeah.
[00:24:05] Heather Osgood: How have you been testing results? So I know obviously as you said, you are looking for a very specific return on your investment. , what does result checking look like for you?
[00:24:17] Hannah Wanish: Yeah, so I would say, we are very performance-driven so we are looking at return on ad spend first and foremost. But with that, I will say there are so many different factors that play into that as well. So I'm looking at the number of sessions, users clicking into the landing page, the amount of time on the page. So something with that is if which I saw the other day, I saw the average time it was nine minutes on the site and revenue was a little bit lower. To me that says that users are struggling on our website, on our landing pages so how can we fix it to create a better journey for that customer because that to me says, we have got a lot of people interested, not a lot of purchasing, [00:25:00] so there's something a discrepancy there.
[00:25:02] So we're looking at that as well. And then we are looking at the conversion rate. We are looking at the essential revenue from the discount that we create.
[00:25:11] Heather Osgood: Great. Great. And so do you use any, obviously, you just went through that you were looking at site visits and time on site and all those kinds of things, but, are you using any other tools to really look at that return, or are you just looking at who use the promo code and I'm going to attribute that, that purchase to that podcast?
[00:25:35] Yeah. Something we're also looking at too is if you are for the partner, who's purchased what product. , I can also see maybe they did a green juice ad, but we had red juice on their landing page and everyone was purchasing that. Well, then I know, Hey, let's for the next run why don't we do an ad on red juice because your, your customers are loving that product and that's what they're purchasing most. So I'm all looking at that and we use Tableau. It's a [00:26:00] reporting analytics dashboard company that does an amazing job. So we use them for every part of our business. And then I'm also looking at GA I'm also looking at Shopify revenue, and I use all of those tools.
[00:26:13] Hannah Wanish: I think podcasting is still like the wild, wild west. And, we have talked to a few different pixel companies, which I think would be helpful, but right now we're not able to do that with some of our partners in certain networks. So eventually we hope that we can use that as well because I feel like you need to use everything and think outside of the box when you are looking at performance, because, there are so many aspects and, as we know, as a customer myself, I'll listen to a podcast, go to the website, take a few days to think about it, listen to another episode, maybe purchase. I know myself and I know that I need to be looking at from a brand perspective all the different ways in which we can track performance.
[00:26:54] Heather Osgood: I appreciate that because it isn't just let's look at this one indication of performance and success and I know that there are tools now, and we're going to, I'm sure, get more tools to come, which will be great. But ultimately, and I think that this is the case, really, with any form of advertising, you do need to look at a variety of different things to see what performance looks like. And it's a lot of work, and I can tell that you're doing a lot of work for it, but it, ultimately it's paying off because you continue to invest in this space.
[00:27:28] Hannah Wanish: Yes yep, and I think too, like the other day there was a show, that we had. We were about to decide on renewing, and I saw that their sessions were super high.
[00:27:36] Like I just said, and their revenue was a little bit lower than what we wanted or needed to make it work. But of course, I resigned because I see the potential there. And now it's our job as a company to figure out how to make that customer journey experience better. So now we can retest with a better landing page design and we can hopefully move forward from that test [00:28:00] to a long-term contract.
[00:28:01] There are just so many ways, and I think too, trying to network within the space with other brands to see what's working with them, for them is super important and something that I'm really focusing on as well. It's like building out even a little mastermind, for podcasters. So if anyone's interested, let me know, just like once a week or once a month round table to talk about what's working for them, what's not because I do think it's the wild west, space still. And, we're all trying to figure it out together. And people listening in right now, everyone wants to know what to do and move forward with. But right now we know what's working and we're just sticking to that and figuring out as we go and, it's the ebbs and flows of figuring out different things in certain strategies and that is the long tail answer.
[00:28:50] Heather Osgood: That's awesome. So as soon as you get your round table together, just let me know.
[00:28:54] We could have a round table podcast interview, that would be so much fun.
[00:28:57] Yeah, that would be. [00:29:00] Yeah. Cause I talked to some brands too. , and we'll just bounce ideas off each other. What's working, and it's just so interesting to see how different certain brands are looking at performance, and then it intrigues me to look at that as well.
[00:29:14] Hannah Wanish: Yeah, there's so much to be learned, I think, in this space still. And we're all just trying to figure it out together as we continue.
[00:29:23] Heather Osgood: Yeah, absolutely. And I also think that it's so wonderful to talk to people like yourself because you guys are choosing podcasts for a reason? There are lots of different advertising paths you could go down and you guys are choosing podcasts because I love that you guys are so relationship-focused, and this sounds like this medium really allows you to live out maybe some of your core values as a company and building relationships. But ultimately, it's producing success for the company or you wouldn't be going down this path. Just seeing that success I think, is really great. Um, and [00:30:00] that brings me to my next question. Which is, you are doing so much, this is not a, let me hop online to this like online buying site and, you know, plop down. $50,000 to this campaign in 15 minutes. Right? I mean, you are working hard for this.
[00:30:18] So, one of the questions I get asked a lot is about scalability. Once you find a medium that is producing and if a show that's producing anything, right? I mean, there's a reason that social media ads exploded. And it was because people were like, well, I know if I spend $10,000, I'm going to make $5,000 or $50,000?
[00:30:38] People saw that they could make money there and that that's the formula to advertising, is what do we need to invest to get what we're looking for in terms of growing the company? How do you take something like podcast advertising with such a high-touch approach and really scale that?
[00:30:54] Hannah Wanish: Yeah, I think, something that I'm currently not currently, but previously I was so[00:31:00] tunnel vision on, this is the show, the genre I need, this is what's going to be successful. And then I just kind of was like, you know what, I need to try other avenues, different genres. I need to try different things.
[00:31:11] And it started working. So then I realized like, okay, we're onto something here. And I just allowed myself to be okay with it. I was so strict on needing to succeed and hitting these numbers, and then I realized like, I need to just look at the big picture. And what's going to work is really dialing in these relationships.
[00:31:29] I want our partners, like I said, I think that's like the biggest takeaway that I'm trying to get across is like that relationship with partners, asking them how their families are sending cards. When they get engaged, they're going through something: flowers. I want my partners to feel like they are taken care of and part of the family and I can check in with them. And I think that just resonates so much with those partners, feeling that in return, and wanting to succeed and continue that partnership. We have partners that we've partnered with for six years and that's like a lot of our partners are long-term. So, essentially what I saw was I was maxed out, and the partners that I was building those relationships with keeping those relationships with, but also trying to scale. So once you're at that point, look at hiring additional team members and that's what we've done at Organifi. So now we are a team of three, which is really exciting. Um, so in the last three months, we've hired two other members. And, now they're looking to grow their partners and their relationships and work on strategy. And now together, the three of us can scale that. But, I think another important aspect is looking at the shows that are not the biggest shows in the world. , I really like to focus on the small shows, that are just getting started that are eager and looking to provide great content and stories for their audience. I used to do influencer marketing and I always found those little shows performed so, or little shows, little influencers performed so well with maybe like 10,000 followers. So now I'm searching for partners that are maybe on that smaller scale but can scale.
[00:33:07] And then that investment that you're looking at is not a huge risk. It's more of a smaller one, and they want to work really hard and you want to support them and be their first partner. So those are my favorite relationships to build, but I will say that those help scale, especially while you're looking at other, larger podcasts that might be a little riskier.
[00:33:28] Those shows those smaller ones will help, and those are the ones I always say. Don't forget about them. They deserve a chance to be sponsored and they work really hard and they are just so interested in what they can do for the brand, and likewise, we are too. There are so many aspects, like my brain right now, I was like, I don't even know which one to talk about because there are so many things, but I would say, focus on what you can and when you are maxing out your capacity and, you're not able to give your [00:34:00] partners what they all need, look at, hiring out, and then being able to focus on a high-level strategy of how to grow. Which is, diversifying genres. Make sure that your partners are always taken care of, and looking at the smaller shows and looking at what is working for brands, as well in the space. Magellan is great for that because I can see what other top podcast industry leaders are doing and see how I can follow a little bit of what they are doing as well and implement that into Organifi.
[00:34:29] Heather Osgood: That's great. thank you for laying that out so clearly, cause I know you said there were a bazillion different directions you could go in. So I appreciate that. When we look at the size, what is your definition of small?
[00:34:43] Hannah Wanish: So 10,000 downloads a month.
[00:34:47] Heather Osgood: 10,000 downloads an episode in a month?
[00:34:49] Hannah Wanish: 10,000 a month. Something that has been really helping with podcasts, which is a little off-topic, but it's introducing more of a multi-channel partnership so those smaller ones, as well as maybe they have smaller downloads, but how can we incorporate them into more social media? Maybe they have a big newsletter. Sometimes we see huge influencers starting a podcast and it might be smaller. So like incorporating different, channels into that partnership. But even if they're just a small channel, helping them, get their feet off the ground with a first partnership. Again, it doesn't matter if you have a hundred thousand downloads a month or 10,000, those 10,000 might be avid listeners every week and know that host, so authentically. I feel like the smaller shows, they listened to that host and we'll really incorporate whatever they're saying in that ad, into their life. Those 10,000 might all buy or maybe 50% of them buy, but now you have 5,000 people that are purchasing. Organifi where that those bigger audiences have multiple advertisers, weekly, daily in their ads that it makes it hard to want to, buy or maybe it's overwhelming. So I always say focus on those smaller shows.
[00:36:11] Heather Osgood: Yeah. I think that's such great advice. I also think as you had mentioned, gosh, I won't ever forget. I was talking to another similar, health supplement powder supplement company, and they were very new to podcast advertising, and they decided, which I don't know why, but they bought three ads on a big comedy show and it costs them $75,000, and they said they didn't get anything. And I'm like why did you start there? I would never have started there. If you're new to podcast advertising, to me, it makes sense to say, I'm going to start out and I'm going to try smaller shows and I'm going to see where the traction is because of the way that I look at it, is it's not the same podcasts are [00:37:00] not one channel.
If you're advertising maybe on Facebook or Instagram, or you're doing Google Adwords, that's a channel that you can learn. You can study it, you can see how, and granted, there's a lot of leverage you can pull, all kinds of different things, but ultimately Facebook ad is still a Facebook ad. But like in podcasting, one show is not the same as the next one. The audience is not the same as the next so even though it's the same medium, it's really very different from show to show. and all advertisers need to realize is that you're going to have successes and you're going to have failures, and unfortunately, as the old saying goes, we know that 20% of our advertising works, we just don't know which 20%, and I think a lot of times with podcasts. I would love to sit here and say, oh, 90% of the shows you advertise on are going to, are going to produce great results for you. But the reality is it's probably the vast majority of them are not going to produce great results, and you're going to have to try to see what [00:38:00] relationships work best. Which podcasts produce best, and so, it's a trial and an error and you can't just go straight to the biggest shows. I don't think.
[00:38:08] Hannah Wanish: I don't think either. I will say the first show that I brought on was a smaller show and she's still a partner of ours. And, essentially too, when you're looking at, these big shows, I always say, look at the smaller ones, the middle ones. And, it's a lot of work to get that partnership going and to make sure that you're following and checking the results and figuring out ways to make that work. So it's also an investment in that partner of, I won't bring on a lot of shows every month, I'll bring on a few, focus on those solely and make sure that I'm doing my job in every single aspect to figure out how to make that work. Because in the end, if I can do all of that work to make it work and create a long-term partnership that we keep for a year, two years, three years indefinitely, then that is a lot easier than me reaching out to multiple shows, seeing them fail. I would say definitely [00:39:00] start small. It might be more work at the beginning. Like I'm sure if you were to sign a $75 thing, you sign it, the show has the ad read and it's done. But, I like those smaller shows. It's more work at the beginning, but it leads to a beautiful relationship that ends up being a really easy one, and then you, can just continue that year after year.
[00:39:20] Heather Osgood: Yeah, absolutely. The other thing that I think is so important to look at is that the bigger the audience gets, and the more famous the host gets, the less, the influencer piece really works. I even just think of Oprah Super Soul Sunday.
[00:39:37] We just started talks with a couple of shows where they have very high-level CEOs. I get that the CEO of a billion-dollar company doesn't want to meet with a brand to talk about the talking points. They don't, which makes sense. I get it. Of course, they don't, they've got a million things on their plate, but then that morphs the ads.
[00:39:58] They're in a different place. They're not in the same category. So I think that's also important to look at it. And it's not to say that large shows can't produce and don't produce because many, many of them do. So, I'm not saying you shouldn't advertise on big shows, but I think that for me, a lot of the profit to be had is in the middle, and I think it gets overlooked.
[00:40:19] Hannah Wanish: I think so, too. And, we've tested a lot of large shows and they haven't done well, and then we've tested small shows and maybe they don't do as well, but they still do better.
[00:40:28] Heather Osgood: Because ultimately the ROAS is better.
[00:40:30] Hannah Wanish: Yeah. And I, I keep going back to this, but the listeners on those smaller shows really care what those people are saying and are so invested. I would think that the influence is similar, but also just know that when you're going for bigger shows, a lot of people that are getting in the space are going to go for those bigger shows and they're not going to do as well because they probably have six advertisers on that one show - maybe even more. I mean, it's crazy.
[00:40:59] I will listen to [00:41:00] pre-rolls mid-rolls and posts and I'm like, there are just 10 different opportunities to advertise and 10 different people did. And so that's something we also do is we won't advertise on a show that has more than three ads per episode advertisers per episode.
[00:41:14] Heather Osgood: I think that's really smart.
[00:41:16] Hannah Wanish: Yeah, because it's just too diluted and you now are taking away that authenticity say, I love this product and then you're just like into the next.
[00:41:25] So I do that as a sweet spot and that's a lot of times those smaller shows aren't overloaded with advertisers and you might be the only one. And that's great. And that's what we look for. There are some partners that are like, oh, we can't work with you right now because we only work with one advertiser.
[00:41:39] And I'm like, okay, I'm putting on my calendar for the day that I know that's over because that is exactly what I'm looking for in a partner. They're not in it for getting a bunch of money from different brands. They're in it for authenticity and keeping their audience real. That is, for me, top.
[00:41:56] Heather Osgood: Yeah. Well, Hannah, thank you so much. It's been so great having you on the [00:42:00] show. And I know we probably could talk for another hour about all of the ins and outs of this, but I just really appreciate you sharing all of your wisdom and the things that have worked for you. If people are interested in connecting with you, how can they do that?
[00:42:13] Hannah Wanish: They can find me on LinkedIn, which is Hannah Schneidenbeck-Wanish, probably way too long.
[00:42:21] Heather Osgood: We'll put the link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. So people want to find that there they can.
[00:42:25] Hannah Wanish: Yes, for business, and then, yeah, everyone connects with me on Instagram as well. I'm always in the mountains, climbing and hiking with my husband and dog, but that's a fun place, if anyone's interested in connecting outside of work we can put that in as well. But I would love to connect either way. If anyone is interested in that round table, mastermind for podcasters, please let me know. That would be great.
[00:42:48] Heather Osgood: You're looking for people who are advertising, right? They're advertising executives, buying podcasts now.
[00:42:54] Yes. Yeah. That's how I think we'll start and go from there. But yeah, I'm always, even if you're just a brand looking to chat, I love networking. And just talking about what the company's about, what the culture's like there and, um, also podcasts.
[00:43:11] Great. And if people haven't ever heard of Organifi or haven't checked out the product, they should go to organifi.com and check it out there as well.
[00:43:20] Excellent. Well, thank you, Hannah. And thank you for listening. Have a great rest of your day and we'll talk to you again soon.
Senior Podcast Partnership Manager
Hannah grew up in Rhode Island and was a passionate college soccer player. After college, she moved to San Diego and found Organifi. Her passion for health, the outdoors, and podcast was the perfect mix for her role as Senior Podcast Partnership Manager. When she is not buying podcast ads, you can find her working on her van or hiking/climbing mountains with her husband!