April 28, 2021

Podcast Advertising Is Reaching The Unreachable On-Demand Generation

Podcast Advertising Is Reaching The Unreachable On-Demand Generation

Sam Katz, from Marketsmith Inc, joins me on the podcast to talk about his experience with reaching the ever-growing on-demand generation that is opting out of advertising.  We talk about how brands and marketers can gain insights from the...

Sam Katz, from Marketsmith Inc, joins me on the podcast to talk about his experience with reaching the ever-growing on-demand generation that is opting out of advertising. 

We talk about how brands and marketers can gain insights from the changing landscape of consumer behaviors by immersing themselves in their habits. 

We also discuss how podcast advertising can play a crucial role in connecting brands with the unreachable audience that has disengaged from other types of channels.

You can connect with Sam on LinkedIn.



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This transcript has not been edited.

[00:00:29]Heather Osgood: [00:00:29] Hello. Welcome to the podcast advertising playbook. I'm your host, Heather Osgood. And I am pleased today to be joined by Sam Katz of Marketsmith, Inc. Sam and I met, Oh, I don't know, a few months back because he was very intrigued with what was happening in the podcast space.

[00:00:48] And we were able to do a live stream a few weeks ago and really just had a great conversation about influencer marketing. Sam has such an in-depth knowledge of the marketing [00:01:00] space in general. And I wanted to bring him on the show today because we want to talk about how podcast advertising can really reach that unreachable audience.

[00:01:10] And in particular, that on-demand generation. The kids with their phones in their faces, and that's it.  And if we really dissect what that on-demand generation is doing, how we can reach them with podcast advertising. Welcome to the program, Sam; thanks for being on with me today. 

[00:01:29] Sam Katz: [00:01:29] Heather, so great to see you, and thank you so much for having me on again. Or it's great to be on your podcast this time. It's an honor. 

[00:01:36] Heather Osgood: [00:01:36] Excellent. Thank you. I know we just had such a great time chatting. And one of the things that I really appreciate about our conversations is that you always bring such an in-depth bit of knowledge, but also I feel an in-depth way of approaching a topic.

[00:01:53] And even just before getting the recording going, we were talking about what the unreachable [00:02:00] person is. And in marketing, obviously, if our goal is to create sales for our business, we have to reach people with a message about our business, right?  And way back in my early days, I used to say that advertising to me was just essentially sending out an invitation.

[00:02:16] If you, you know, decided to have a party, you hired a caterer, you hired a band, you cleaned, you decorated, and you didn't send any invitations out.  It's going to be a pretty lame party. So in marketing, our goal is to get eyes on us, it's to invite people to the party, but how can you do that if you're unable to reach people?

[00:02:35] So why don't we start by just dissecting what unreachable really means? 

[00:02:40]Sam Katz: [00:02:40] Absolutely. But first, I do want to come, and just quickly, nothing draws a crowd, like a crowd, no matter where you are. I think we've learned that from Time Square walks or wherever you travel around and see a large group of people. You want to see what that is, but let's talk unreachable. 

[00:02:54] Heather Osgood: [00:02:54] And it could be, I think in this day and age of COVID a crowd, doesn't have to be a physical crowd. [00:03:00] It could be an online crowd just as well as a physical crowd. 

[00:03:03]Sam Katz: [00:03:03] That is absolutely correct. Online crowds are all the rage these days. The only crowd you're allowed to be in right now, but the so unreachable we've actually, at MarketSmith, spent a lot of time talking about what does it looks like, who these people are, and how to reach them through media and different tactics. And it all comes down to using multiple tactics at a time and starting conversations, and building community. The same sort of tactics you would use to reach that on-demand generation or whoever you're talking about might just be a bit more difficult, or you might have to do a bit more research into what these people like they're viewing and their interests. That's not the same thing as their likes, but I'll build on it. Behaviors were what I meant to say. 

[00:03:47] But unreachable can mean a bunch of different things. You can look at the location; you can look at the language; you can look at accessibility education. All these different levers can make someone a little bit more difficult to reach. So for [00:04:00] example, in the same zip code, a person can be an elderly farmer in a rural area. Whereas, maybe 20 minutes away, down the street, there could be someone that's a little bit gen Z, hip hop artists who want to move to the city one day. And they might have a paper route for their local school. Whatever that might look like. So two very different people need to make it, who may need to get the same message. If it's a local alert if there's something important that they need to know in the town, whatever that may be.

[00:04:27]It could be a national message too, but you still need to reach people in a personal way. And there are these different polarizing people who would be hard to reach. To use an example, another example, language.  Within a tiny area, people may speak multiple languages. And that means a few things.

[00:04:41] One, it's the actual word to use, yes. So if you use just a Google translator, that won't work. But also, culturally, people that speak the same language may reference the same thing differently. So really understanding how people speak, what they do culturally and getting into those cultures from the inside out, [00:05:00] it's really the way to reach these unreachable which I think is a good segue into what we're going to talk about, which is podcasts and influencers and creators. 

[00:05:08]Heather Osgood: [00:05:08] Yeah, for sure. So people can be unreachable for several different reasons. And as a marketer, you need to establish who your target market is, and then look at how to reach them and define how unreachable that person is or how difficult it is to reach that person. I think back to there's a great podcast out there called The Making Of Oprah. And it's like a; I don't know, eight, eight podcast series.

[00:05:38] And it talked about her life. You know, how she got started, where she is today. And one of the things that were just amazing to me is that they said in that podcast that the four o'clock time slot that Oprah had during that time reached a crazy percent of the population. It was like 30% of the population was reached [00:06:00] by her show.

[00:06:01] And the reality is today, there is no media out there or a medium out there that could have as high a penetration. And so we don't have the luxuries, and it's, I feel like it's so ironic or ironic because back in those days, you know, I don't know when that was probably the early to late nineties.

[00:06:20]Marketers were stressed out about the fact that they didn't know who they were reaching, or maybe they didn't know exactly what the metrics were. And everybody was so excited when digital marketing happened because all of a sudden, we had all this rich data. But, I think what's so ironic is all of that data just led to having just it's so fractured. And so obviously, you've determined who your target market is, but then determining where your target market is, is very difficult. And I know we touched on this before we jumped on this call. But the reality is that even when I look at my own practices and how, [00:07:00] if somebody was trying to reach me a middle-aged woman with children, who's also a business owner. Um, you know, How would they reach me? What kind of medium is going to resonate with me? How do they get that message across? And it's not; I think as easy sometimes as maybe marketers feel like it could be because the types of consumption the types of products we're consuming now are, again, they're so fractured, and they're very, I would say, individualistic as well. Like, you know, my best friend might listen to the radio. I never listened to the radio. So you might reach her with a radio ad, but you're not going to reach me. 

[00:07:41] Sam Katz: [00:07:41] Yeah, totally. I, a few things come to mind. The first thing is when people say things like all millennials are all gen Z, do this or something. And I understand that there are trends, and there's data that supports those trends. But I find them hard to read too. I can't read so much into those because, yeah, I'm the same age as my roommate, as someone [00:08:00] that lives down the street. And yet, we do things drastically differently. We consume differently.

[00:08:04] I mean, he questions like, why are you on YouTube all the time? And I asked him, why are you watching cable TV. Like, I don't have cable TV, and he doesn't use YouTube, and we are the same age, the same school grew up in the same place, all that stuff. So that's one thing. And two things come up that I've been thinking about.

[00:08:21] One is the idea of neighbors and neighborhood. You mentioned local and being in the same place. I think that definition will change with these as generations go on because of technology and information. And I know those are pretty general, but I'll give an example. Let's take the gaming world. People five years ago said we want to target gamers, but the idea is that gamers are such a broad topic or such a broad audience that there are a million segments within gamers.

[00:08:47] You can have gamer moms that love hip hop and yoga, and that would be a big enough segment to find the right podcast hosts to target those people. At the same time, you need to be as efficient as possible. So I get. But [00:09:00] to go back to the neighborhoods. I think Neighbors refer to people that live close together; they probably share some things culturally.

[00:09:06] They speak similarly. Suppose you think about people from New York's because of certain ways. People from LA it's because certain way that I think that will all change and neighborhoods will be built upon passion points and behaviors, as opposed to location. I've been spending some time doing some VR gaming, and you put this headset on, and suddenly you're talking to people from all over the place, and we're talking the same language that's in the game.

[00:09:29] We're not talking about anything else. So that's like a whole new language. The Q Anon documentary that came out that is a whole neighborhood of people that believe a certain thing, talk in a certain way, move in a certain way. And I think when you look at it like neighborhoods, or you look at it like that, where these people all talk in one way here, but they also have interests in other neighborhoods over here.

[00:09:46] So like people, you're part of multiple communities, multiple neighborhoods. And your voice and the way you speak change within each of those. And I say that to say for marketers, it's tough. You have to pick and choose where you want to [00:10:00] market, how you want to speak what you want to use to get that message out.

[00:10:03] But I think. What works is when you pick those communities, those very niche communities, and go all in. And embed yourself within them, not sell to them, not talk down to them. There's an equal amount of information from one end to the other. 

[00:10:16] Heather Osgood: [00:10:16] I love that. I think let's unpack that. Cause you, you touched on lots of different things in there, so let's cover that.

[00:10:22] So I think that you're obviously spot on and not to detract from the geographic location and the community that we can build still with our neighbors. I think that is still super important, but what is so fascinating is that you can create groups and relationships with people all over the country and all over the world and reach those people.

[00:10:47] Like you said, speaking to those people, I think, is so fascinating. And obviously, we know the, what. This whole digital world has created for us is now all of a sudden you can find those [00:11:00] people online that loved the color blue that has white cats and crochet on Friday nights. Like you can do that where before you couldn't, it was challenging to run into somebody in your neighborhood.

[00:11:10] That likes all the same things you did, or like you said, maybe it's not all the same things, but they had a deep passion for something that maybe wasn't as common. So now you're able to reach those people. And I think that it's so important for us to look at these people are hanging out in different communities.

[00:11:27] Whether that's Facebook, whether that's Reddit, whether that's Clubhouse, whether that's YouTube or VR game, right. They're hanging out in specific locations. Or podcasts, I forgot to mention that one in a big way. And, but they're hanging out in these locations, so that's important. But then I think the other thing you mentioned is so important is how you essentially identify that group and how you, as you mentioned, how do you get on this level playing field with them. 

[00:11:57] And, for me, one [00:12:00] of the very most important fundamental changes that have to happen in advertising, in particular, is people have to start feeling like they're not being yelled at. Nobody cares about your company. They only care about how your product or your service is going to make their lives better.

[00:12:20] And if they feel like you are as a brand if you were part of their community and you're not trying to infiltrate their community, but you're trying to come alongside them, such exactly. That's such a different position. And in my opinion, it is totally counter to years and years of how we have marketed and advertise to people.

[00:12:44] So, how does a company come alongside a group and add value? 

[00:12:49]Sam Katz: [00:12:49] Totally. And there are so many different ways to do that. I think the first thought everyone goes to is, how can you pay someone? Or how can you do it that way? But I think that people do crave [00:13:00] experiences. That's a word thrown around way too much, but if you need to tie that into what you said about being a part of that community, not speaking down to or impeding upon that community. 

[00:13:14] And take the VR example if I'm playing in this first-person shooter game, and all of a sudden, there's a Domino's in the game that makes no sense. Maybe you'll get a lot of brand awareness, but no one in that game will be like this; this really helped my situation out.

[00:13:28] So that wouldn't be the best way to go about it. There are ways of making the experience more interesting. It could be funny. It could be commentary. For example, if a brand started a podcast or a Twitch channel that reviewed Game of Thrones. It may have nothing to do with their brand at all. But the fact that you have maybe funny people or interesting people being real as people do and reviewing something that's, known by the public, you're now building a new audience and building some credibility or comfort, or you're adding value by being funny.

[00:13:56] And that's an experience in itself. So there's no need to reinvent the wheel totally. I think you can look to trends that work. As someone that's marketing a B2B company right now, how do we do that? We definitely want leads. And we were looking for a particular type of person that we're trying to reach. Still, there is value in my opinion of building out a silly Tik Tok account that maybe does silly dances, utilizes trends, but speaks to some interesting things in the marketplace. And the target on Tik Tok might be younger. They may not be the CMOs of Campbell soup and all those things, but where we could build a following and speak to an audience there and learn more from that.

[00:14:32] And then that becomes something that we can use to speak outward about. So I think there are a few things there as well. It knows the channel you're using speaking to that market or that community in a way that makes sense. Yeah. And then using the things that already work to then build upon. And it's not stealing; it's paying homage. It's building upon adding to making better. 

[00:14:51] Uh, also allowing space for other people to create and build upon that. It shouldn't be dead in the water. This is what we created; enjoy it. It's what does it provide? How can they build it out even more? 

[00:15:02] Heather Osgood: [00:15:02] Right. Right. 

[00:15:03] Sam Katz: [00:15:03] A podcast quickly a podcast example, Bill Burr, comedian. Known to not care so much about what people think and has a certain tone.  There's a famous clip compilation of him saying like him not caring about his sponsors. And it's hilarious; it's him having an Uber and then talking bad about them.

[00:15:22] But one of them is Sherry's Berries, a silly fruit company to market on Bill Burr. Like you have to know going into it that he might make fun of it. Listen to the clip. It's hilarious. He does. But to me, that's a missed opportunity by them to totally like layer into that, playoff it, don't get mad at that.

[00:15:39] Don't take the sponsor, like go in on that, take your brand a little less serious unless it needs to be super serious. 

[00:15:46] Heather Osgood: [00:15:46] Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good point. So one of the questions I have in that is. And this is where influencer marketing comes into play. I think that the brand needs to have a presence as the [00:16:00] brand, but the power of influencers is that you can partner with someone to bring that message and to cut down, obviously on the time that it takes to infiltrate these groups and become a part of them essentially. If you're able to identify an influencer within that group that can speak for you, whether they're speaking funnily, or whether they're speaking seriously, but it's important, they know the language, and they're going to speak to that group better than you as a brand could.

[00:16:30]Sam Katz: [00:16:30] Absolutely. I mean, let's go back to the hard to reach. If you're talking about a certain group of people that speak a certain language has certain interests. There are already people that organically speak to that group. Whether they are radio hosts that they follow because they're listening to them and work, or they are activists or artists from that town, but it could be anything, but they already have a following.

[00:16:52] If it's 10,000 followers, 5,000 followers, maybe 50, it could be a lot. And so tapping into those voices who already authentically speaking to them. [00:17:00] Know what language to use. They know the culture to reference; they know the words that they use to convey certain things. As a brand, you could spend all the time in the world researching how people talk, what they speak, which communities do you want to hit, or you could find people in those communities already talking to them. 

[00:17:17] To add to that, though, you can then use that content that influencer created and already knows, works with that audience, and use in a larger marketing media plan to reach out then further. So you know that I'll use myself as a reference Jersey city males over 25 that enjoy sports, comedy, and music. We want to speak to those people. They had, there's an influencer in Jersey city. That's a sports guy, and he's constantly putting up funny videos. He has 20,000 followers of people just like me.

[00:17:48] He creates content; it works on his channel. He gets people to sign up or know something, whatever that is. But then the brand can then take that content and expand it out. Go, Oh, we assume that 27-year-olds in Jersey like this, maybe 27-year-olds in New York like this in California and Texas and all these other places. We can target even more people with this content already works. 

[00:18:09] Heather Osgood: [00:18:09] Yeah. No, I think that's the basis, is taking what has been creating a creative and then trying to multiply that for sure. And, just to transition this into podcasting, the value of the podcast listener and the value of the podcast host is that we can create this relationship within podcasting.

[00:18:29] And the reason that I wanted to have you on to talk about this today is that, and if you listen to some of our prior episodes, I feel that it is so important for us to look at podcast hosts as influencers. And for some reason, we do not look at them as influencers. And I think that it is entirely the way that we position what an influencer is within our minds as marketers. That [00:19:00] we think an influencer has to be in social media, or they have to be on YouTube, or they have to be, in a specific platform. But the reality is that if you have been able to amass an audience around you that listens to you, there is power in that.

[00:19:13] And, to your point and something so important for me to communicate to brands is that this person, they understand their audience. And what I see happen is we're trying to create these organic, authentic ad reads. Then you have a brand that comes in, and they're like, yeah, but make sure they say this. Ensure that they include this sentence, or we just drafted the script for them, or make sure they say our company name like six times in the end. It's so funny to me because I feel like they zap, all of that. That energy out, right? They zap all of the power and all of that connection because they, as the brand, don't know how to infiltrate this community.

[00:19:57] You need the influencer to do that [00:20:00] connecting. How do you see brands doing that as well? 

[00:20:04] Sam Katz: [00:20:04] Oh, I liked that you used the word infiltrate when referring to the brand, trying to infiltrate. And I think with podcasters and influencers, they're not infiltrating because they're already in it or they're leading it. That's the point they're leading this group of people. It might not be the direct target you're looking for, but it's the same relationship that anyone would have with someone they follow on Instagram, where it's just an ongoing story. You've truly felt like friends, and it sounds silly, but there are podcasts, those comedians that I've listened to every week for two years, something bad happens to him where they get canceled, and they've done terrible things. And it feels like something happened to a friend or something where I didn't know what to do when I was like, do I still like this guy?

[00:20:49] Do I have to not like him anymore? He's funny, but this is really bad. And so it was a real discussion with myself. I was like, this is someone I care about. And what he w what he would talk about was nonsense. All the [00:21:00] time, but when he would talk about the things that he liked, whether it was the shoe company or service he used, I would listen.

[00:21:05]And because it was in his voice and he would say I drink this every day. Like I love it because of all these things. It wasn't; even though he's reading an ad, there are ways of making that fun and interesting.

[00:21:17] And that's what social, and podcasts and influencers are allowed to do every day. That being said, you do want, depending on what it is, you want to have those conversations to make sure this person is right. If you are going to give that freedom, make sure you know that you're giving them, you want them to have that freedom.

[00:21:34]If you're not sure about it and you don't want to, you're, you don't want to give them that freedom. Maybe you don't want to work with that influencer or that you don't have to work with these people, right? 

[00:21:43] Heather Osgood: [00:21:43] Ooh. I love that. You don't have to. That is very true. You don't, but I think it's so important to follow best practices if you are.

[00:21:54] And I often find times, just from my, I would [00:22:00] say just even my career, working with businesses who are, you know, trying to market their product or service. When I had my trade show production company, we knew how to set a booth up so that you could get optimal results from that trade show. 

[00:22:14] And yet, these companies would come in, they would set up horrible booth space. They would do all of these things wrong, even though we told them not to. And then it would be like; this didn't work for me. And I was like, yeah, because you have to do X, Y, and Z for it to work. And I feel like that is how it is, with any medium.

[00:22:31] But I, I just, I want to emphasize the importance that if you are thinking about trying to use a tactic like this, you do have to rely on that influencer to craft the message. Now that being said, you still need to give them important talking points. They don't know the unique selling proposition of your product.

[00:22:50] They don't know the calls to action that work best. They don't know all of the details about your product. So giving them that information upfront so that they can [00:23:00] craft it in a way that's going to benefit you. The advertisers. Super important, but give them that freedom so that they can make that connection. 

[00:23:09] Sam Katz: [00:23:09] 100%. And look there, you have to balance like the speed of getting marketing plans up and making sure everything's clear. And so that presents its own set of issues. I think it works though you already know that the influencer, the podcast hosts, has used your product like your product.

[00:23:26] Maybe they haven't expressed it in the past, but give them a week or a month to try it or see what it is. And that could be excellent feedback if you're really trying to reach their audience. Maybe there are key components that they can suggest cause you didn't look at it from a, you know, gen Z uh, you know, twitch person's point of view. And they can point out, Oh, this I, it would be amazing if this, or I really liked this point about it. And then you could be a marketer going on. I didn't even think that the purple part was cool about this product. So it is a give and take, because again, you can't forget that there's all [00:24:00] those things that deadlines and things needed to get made talking points that you need to present and make sure they're. So I get it, but it's a. Minding that gap. 

[00:24:08]Heather Osgood: [00:24:08] Well, You bring up such a good point, and I feel like, gosh, we're recording this at the beginning of Q2 in 2021. And I don't know what's going on, but everybody, all of a sudden, it feels like things need to happen tomorrow. It's everybody's this has to happen right this second.

[00:24:25] And yes, I understand the urgency. I understand timelines, but I also think that when you're setting up an influencer campaign, it is very different from Hey, we're going to pop this Facebook ad up, right? Like we could get this together and pop it online in a few seconds. Podcast advertising, while it can be fast, also takes time. You've got to get the product. You've got to make sure the host has time to understand the product and experience it. If you want them to come up with that organic that, it really makes it truthful on some level. 

[00:25:03] Sam Katz: [00:25:03] I agree. Look, TV ads. They do work in terms of getting a message out. We can't discount that. But I also think you can't discount the one-to-one connections that these people, creators, podcasts, hosts, influencers; however, you want it to find them have with their audience. And again, going back to those neighborhoods. There are multiple Venn diagrams of neighborhoods within these audiences, of what people like.

[00:25:25] So I think if you truly can dissect what that is by being like as a marketer, I think it helps if you are part of that community, it may be a point where you should only focus on the things that you know, best because there might not be a there's tech that can help you get data points. I like.

[00:25:40] All right. I subscribed to that, but sometimes the only way to really understand a community is to be part of it. And to understand how to market to that. It might take experts in those fields to do that. So maybe I am just bringing on podcasts, those creators, to educate you and speak about from their point of view how to reach these people.

[00:25:59] Yeah, [00:26:00] but if there's tons of value of understanding how they speak, what they want to do from an inorganic way. 

[00:26:05]Heather Osgood: [00:26:05] Yeah. And I think, just bringing it back to the unreachable person, I don't think that anyone is truly unreachable. I think ultimately it's, are you speaking their language? So as a marketer, are you talking to them in a way that they can hear and just bringing the conversation kind of full circle? That can mean a lot of different things, right? Just from the basics of, are you actually speaking the language they speak, but it can also be, are you reaching them in a way, that they have the capacity to absorb your message to make a buying decision. 

[00:26:41] Sam Katz: [00:26:41] Absolutely. My grandma can't use her smartphone. So sending an alert to her smartphone from a brand would not do anything. She can read totally fine. She goes to the supermarket and is constantly there. So a ma a nice poster that can catch her attention would work way better and more efficiently than putting out a big Facebook campaign to [00:27:00] try and reach grandparents to do something. So there are a million different avenues to do it. And each is a path to gaining knowledge learning. And then once you do, it's about going all-in on those learnings, it's it used to be okay to have a marketing campaign, that is very broad, general, all that. Now that is not okay as we've ever talked about.

[00:27:18] So, how do you reduce that waste to increase efficiency at scale? And it's by using creators by using podcasts, hosts and looping that into your media funnel and hyper-targeting even further out of that.  You can use influencers in, out of the home. You can use influencers in a digital display.

[00:27:36] You can use podcast hosts at a live event. There are so many different ways to use these people, but they bring their audience wherever they go. 

[00:27:44]Heather Osgood: And that is the key part. If they bring their audience to their audience and you as the brand, you don't necessarily have that luxury.

[00:27:53] Yes. Many brands. W, you know, build their own following, which of course you should do, but [00:28:00] especially and, because we're talking about reaching these unreachable people, those probably aren't the people that are following your brand already, right? Some people are out there where, you know, there's an opportunity for you to create a connection with them.

[00:28:13] You know, You could sell to them, but you have to send out that invitation. You have to like, again, you have to infiltrate their crowd and get the message out there so that they then want to make a buying decision. 

[00:28:23]Sam Katz: [00:28:23] Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. 

[00:28:25] Heather Osgood: [00:28:25] How important do you think it is to have multiple channels for one influencer? I ask this question because I find it's not uncommon for podcasters to be podcasters. So yeah, while we might find some of the hosts that we work with have social media platforms or maybe, I think a lot of people are trying to get more into YouTube with podcasters are trying to make their podcasts as a video like we did with this one and put it on YouTube. So I think people are trying to go in that [00:29:00] way, but it is widespread, I would say for podcasters, not to support other social channels. How important do you think it is for a marketer to say we've identified this influencer. We know they will be a good fit for us. But maybe they have podcasts, and they don't have other channels to support that? 

[00:29:22] Sam Katz: [00:29:22] I think any quantitative data you can use to show that you have a large audience or a niche audience or an engaged audience is beneficial. So if that means having, being able to showcase that you have a large following on Instagram because of your podcast or because of something, that's great.

[00:29:42] But if let's say you have a huge audience on podcasts, you don't do any other social media. I think it's a missed opportunity not to have another channel or platform or even a website. You should own your own audience in some way or another—bottom line full stop.

[00:29:55]Heather Osgood: [00:29:55] I second that you definitely should have a website. If you have nothing else, at least have a website.

[00:29:59] Sam Katz: [00:29:59] Because you [00:30:00] want to make sure you have all of your audience data. Cause that at the end of the day is most valuable because if something shuts down, you can go to any brand and say, look, I don't rely on any platform. So that's also the benefit of having multiple platforms. As you can say, I speak to people here. I speak to people here. It's different, but they love me. I don't think it's necessary, but I think it's like, it would be a good idea to migrate. And it's just also another checkpoint, too, for a brand that might be taking an hour of a day to run through a list of 50 people who they might be wanting to work with.

[00:30:30] Oh, this pops because they have all three channels. I think that's great. But from the brand point of view, you'd want to use each channel appropriately. The conversations can be very different. I know creators that have one thing on Twitch, a very different thing on Tik Tok. So working with them, you wouldn't want the same content. 

[00:30:47] Heather Osgood: [00:30:47] Exactly. Yeah. How often do you find that marketers do multiples like that? From your experience working maybe with more with influencer marketing in the traditional sense, do you think it's prevalent for a brand to say, Hey, we're going to do YouTube, and we're going to do Tik Tok, and we're going to do Twitch.

[00:31:08] Sam Katz: [00:31:08] Yeah. And so I feel like I get what you're hinting at, like, how do you get Spotify and some of these podcasting platforms into, like, why are those separate conversations? I think it's the semantics of social media. You think of Instagram, Tik Tok, Twitter, Twitch, Facebook, and YouTube.

[00:31:26] With podcasts, it's just in a different headspace for a lot of people. I'm sure there are some formal differences too, where something might come out of a different budget. But it's all the same thing, and they all have different platforms. It's just presented differently. Again, different content, obviously audio versus some other stuff.

[00:31:44]There are common asks: we want to be on these channels and want to be in these places. And I think that's fine. I think that's great. I think it then comes down to, though, who do you want to work with? What do you want the goals to be? And great, if you want to be on Tik Tok, find people on Tik [00:32:00] Tok that work, and you can say let's be on Tik Tok. So we'll find Tik Tokers. 

[00:32:04] But at the end of the day, if one of those Tick Tokers comes back and they go, Oh, for your prep for your boot beauty product, my YouTube channel would be even better. Can I do a video there too? What would you say? No, probably not. So it's just, again, just choices that you have to make and decide it.

[00:32:19] You can really go about it a million different ways, which holds people up of, are we doing this right or wrong way? And it's just like the right way is whatever you deem to be. But go in organically and go all in so that you're committing to those people. 

[00:32:33] Heather Osgood: [00:32:33] Yes. I would love to say a million yeses to that. And it's exactly what you've said. And yes, of course, you have to test things out, but I find it very common to talk to brands or advertisers they aren't fully committed to. And so it's I think maybe I'll try a couple of ads and see what happens. And it's yeah, you can do that.

[00:32:58] And there's nothing wrong with [00:33:00] doing that, but are you going to see the same kind of conversions with that as with, Hey, we really love this person. We want to align with this person and create a real relationship. 

[00:33:13] Sam Katz: [00:33:13] Totally. And that looks again, that's a tough balance that I'm facing myself, and I'm sure many people face you have to manage a budget, and you have to test different things.

[00:33:22] You also need to make sure it works, even as a test. If you're asking your boss or someone for money, whatever that is, it has to work, but it also has to be a test. So sometimes you find yourself in we want to test a few different things. They also need to work, and we don't have that much budget to do it.

[00:33:36]It is a fine line of finding that balance. I think something that you can go all-in on is once you have decided that we want to use people for marketing, creators, podcast hosts, or influencers. Okay. That's step one. Now it's: what is the community that we want to go in on? And you can get lost in the weeds of going super, super granular, which [00:34:00] I don't think is a bad exercise to do. Still, you can also keep it more basic of knowing we let these people like X, Y, and Z. Let's find three creators and work with them to carve this messaging in any capacity. Whether it's a live read or creating for the brand, or maybe they don't post on their channels, but going in on those people makes them feel part of the brand, making them feel like you actually do value them. 

[00:34:25] Heather Osgood: [00:34:25] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that makes all the difference because we see a huge difference in success in campaigns when the ad read has done well.

[00:34:35] And really, what it means to do an ad read well, is it entertaining enough that somebody is actually going to listen to it? Does it sound like you're reading from a poorly written script? And does it sound like the host actually really likes this product? I feel like that happens a fair amount with any influencer marketing, right?

[00:34:56] Sam Katz: [00:34:56] Oh my God. So easy to tell if someone, especially if you've been [00:35:00] following them, you know what they like, what they don't like to go back to bill Burr, I was laughing on my couch for three hours at two in the morning at this Sherry's berries thing. And I will never forget their name. If I ever need chocolate-covered strawberries, I will, I'm looking them up first, and it was all over a bad, from there end, read, but something that a Bill Burr fan would love, like love.

[00:35:23] So, to me, that example just sums everything up. But if what I'm trying to say, I probably should have just said that and stopped talking for the rest of this interview, but I will repeat it. I will go to Sherry's berries for all of my chocolate-covered strawberry needs because of that amazing podcast read.

[00:35:42]Heather Osgood: [00:35:42] I, yes, I second that, and I think you're totally correct. With that, Sam, I think that's a good place for us to end our conversation today. Thank you so much for coming on and just having this conversation with me. And I hope that if you are listening and you're thinking about entering the podcast ad space [00:36:00] that you'll give it a try because there is so much value to be had. But, really, it's about entering the conversation where the conversation is being had. And podcasts are definitely an outlet where those conversations are happening. So if you would like to reach an untapped market, maybe a market you feel is unreachable, podcast advertising can definitely do that for you. 

[00:36:24] Sam, if people want to connect with you, where is the best place for them to connect with you? 

[00:36:27]Sam Katz: [00:36:27] You can find me on Instagram, Skatzy5, or connect with our company, Marketsmith, Inc. on all platforms. We'd love to talk. 

Heather Osgood: Excellent. Thanks so much for being on a show.

[00:36:38] We'll talk to you again soon. 

Sam Katz: Thanks so much, Heather. So much fun.

Sam KatzProfile Photo

Sam Katz

Director of Corporate Marketing

I am a hyper-curious person and always interested in learning, building, creating with innovative people. I'm a soccer, basketball, music, and comedy addict - that's my therapy and meditation. Professionally, I am currently focused on adding to the success of Marketsmith inc, a full-service agency, by building out their sales and marketing funnels (in the form of creating content, forming the ecosystem, sales processes, etc.).