Nov. 12, 2020

Podsights: The Growth And Future Of Podcast Attribution

The true conversion rate of podcast advertising has always been an issue because there has been limited data available until now. Podsights is the new standard in attribution technology that brands and agencies use to measure and scale their...

The true conversion rate of podcast advertising has always been an issue because there has been limited data available until now. Podsights is the new standard in attribution technology that brands and agencies use to measure and scale their podcast advertising.

Brigid Judge, Director Of Partnerships, and Havilland Voss, the Data Analyst, from Podsights, dig deeper into what data podcasts have to offer and how Podsights is leveraging this knowledge for their clients. 

We also talk about how much privacy matters in podcasting and why Dynamic Ad insertion is rising. Learn more about Podsights.

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This transcript has not been edited.

[00:00:30] Hello and welcome to The Podcast Advertising Playbook. I'm your host, Heather Osgood and I have waited a while for this interview. We are with the Podsights team today, and we at True Native Media and full transparency have been working with Podsights for, I want to say it's probably been nearing two years now.

[00:00:51] Heather Osgood: [00:00:51] We, started with Podsights when they first came out. And what Podsights is, it's an attribution tracking software that was [00:01:00] designed specifically for podcasting. One of the biggest challenges that we see in podcasting is that the data is so minimal. As much as we would love to be this great online medium, I always talk about how we fall somewhere between offline and online. And one of the reasons for that is that we don't have that rich data that is provided in so many other digital arenas. And what Podsights has done is they have I feel like pulled the curtain back, just a hair so we have a bit of information about what is going on. Especially when it's surrounding advertising and exactly what kind of conversions are happening. So advertisers want results there in this medium, because they're interested in results, but how do we track those results? So today with me on the program, I have Brigid Judge and Havilland Voss. They are both with Podsights. Welcome to the show, ladies. Thanks for being here.

[00:01:59] Havilland Voss: [00:01:59] Thank you [00:02:00] for having us.

[00:02:01] Brigid Judge: [00:02:01] We're excited.

[00:02:02] Heather Osgood: [00:02:02] Yeah. So one of the reasons why I wanted to pull these two ladies onto the show today is because they have worked extensively on some of the different conversion studies that they have produced and put out, which is so valuable for the industry.

[00:02:18] And so I want them to really dig into this conversion study. But first I want to start by talking a little bit more about what exactly Podsights in particular is, and then what attribution is in general. So can you guys tell us what is Podsights? Maybe why was it founded and what kind of information does it really bring to the podcast industry?

[00:02:42] Brigid Judge: [00:02:42] Yeah. thanks Heather for having us. I can talk a little bit about, who we are and how we started. and in fact, Podsights actually was founded as a free research tool for anyone, really, anyone who wants to get into the podcast space, whether you're an advertiser publisher, [00:03:00] small podcaster, and, you could just go onto the research tool search, where are specific brands advertising. You could to see how often they're advertising, just to get a sense of what that, marketplace looks like. and I believe it was Sarah, who approached our two co-founders Sean and Andy, and was like, Hey guys, we need to be an attribution. and I, would think that this was probably in 2018 at this point.

[00:03:31] Slowly, they, slowly but steadily, they moved out the product into 2019. And, I recall at the time in early 2019, I was at the agency side. I used to work at a big agency in New York. And, Sarah who had previously worked with in the past, she reached out to me and said, Hey, I'm at Podsights now would love to talk to you about this new tool. It's podcast attribution, it's pixel based. And so, what this is and where it is, where we are today [00:04:00] is, when we talk about pixel based attribution, we're talking about two technical integrations to solve the problem. We integrate with the individual shows the podcasters themselves such as True Native. And then we also provide a technical integration on the client's website, so that advertisers website, and what we're essentially doing is we're tracking downloads to on-site visitations, through a couple of data points that we gather, and really that's the bread and butter of what we do.

[00:04:29] I would say the growth has been very significant. And especially with interest, I would say that's probably been one of the biggest things we've seen. And since I've been at, the company, which was probably mid December last year, 2019, lots of changes, lots of new, advertisers in the space that you probably would be like, what?

[00:04:51] So it, there's definitely been so much, since I've, joined and I'm only up from here, so yeah, that's, [00:05:00] what we do in a nutshell.

[00:05:01] Heather Osgood: [00:05:01] Excellent. And how do you think that what you were doing and what other attribution companies are doing is really impacting the podcast industry?

[00:05:14] Brigid Judge: [00:05:14] I would say it's lowering that bar for really any advertiser to jump in and just say, Hey, let's give this a shot. I think coming from my background is in audio buying, and specifically the agency that I was at focused a lot in the big brand awareness advertisers space. And there was always that question, especially with some of the folks that I was working with, the brands they were, they didn't really have anything to offer.

[00:05:40] They just had their brand to offer to that listener. Nothing specific like a promo code to offer a 25% discount. Nothing really specific to that sense. So I think one big thing we've seen, especially with attribution, moving away from this nice to have thing more so to a need to have thing and an, a more [00:06:00] standardized way of, when you, place a podcast buy this is what comes with it.

[00:06:05] We've seen a lot of brands, especially in the brand awareness space, use attribution in all different fashions. And for some folks that means just simply, Hey, did we drive people to our website where they look at our pages? Did they, were they exposed to our ad? Did they buy something?

[00:06:21] And so, I think those are really valuable things, regardless of how far down that funnel that you go. and I think that's one of the biggest things we've seen, especially with ourselves and some of our competitors in the space, really be a part of. I would also say that, one of the biggest, I think preconceived notions, especially before podcast attribution really became bigger and just like more robust is I think this, idea that you have to buy, and plan against these massive podcasts with huge audiences and big names, in order to see results.

[00:06:59] And, I [00:07:00] don't know, this might be a hot take, but I don't necessarily think that's true. We've seen great results for smaller niche shows all the way up to those big, those bigger shows. And I, think that's without having attribution, you would never know. You would never know how to explore different types of content. And being able to change up the strategy if something's not working for you. I think the biggest thing with having real-time attribution is that there may be some optimization opportunities for that brand, to really take a look at it and say, Hey, are these dollars working against me or for me?

[00:07:34] And how can we better use this going forward knowing what we do know? Because it's not a one size fits all, right. The way that advertising and podcasts is approached is so, different, right? There's such a range, such a large scale. And, I think having some sort of attribution baseline for, that advertiser is, super imperative.

[00:07:55] Heather Osgood: [00:07:55] So Brigid, in your experience, having worked at an agency where you did a [00:08:00] lot of brand audio buying, is it your estimation that without a software attribution, such as Podsights, that really those brand advertisers are never going to come into podcasting?

[00:08:14] Brigid Judge: [00:08:14] I would say that it's making them more comfortable. I feel, as if it taking that step forward to test out podcasting seems less scary. I think that's one of the biggest things is, okay, we spend X amount of dollars in this, but how do we know what's happening with it? How do we, know anything?

[00:08:34] And I think, now we live in a day and age where, a lot of channels got away with I guess, different types of reporting for so long. I think, advertisers and marketers want to see something that's more transparent, right? They want to see transparency with, their publisher partner.

[00:08:50] The brands want to have that transparent relationship with their agency and figure out, what is, and what's not working because at the end of the day, I think we all here on this [00:09:00] call and probably the people who are listening really want to see this space grow. and so in order to see that grow it's a matter of finding the right thing that works for that brand. And it's about having that transparency and, level of optimization that you may not have without, attribution.

[00:09:17] Heather Osgood: [00:09:17] Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Havilland, I know that you have worked for early extensively at Podsights on some of the different conversion reports that have taken place.

[00:09:29] at True Native Media, we deal with so many different advertisers. And the question that I get so frequently, especially from prospects or people who are thinking about entering this space is what kind of conversion rates can we expect. And. It really has felt like a big black hole in the past, right?

[00:09:49] Like we haven't necessarily had those numbers. I know, obviously there are agencies out there that do a ton of podcast ad buying. They have their own internal statistics and [00:10:00] strategies that they use. But of course, those aren't necessarily numbers that they're going to widely publish. So that information hasn't necessarily been, readily available.

[00:10:09] But the report that you guys put out here not too long ago, and then, even more currently you've put out a more updated report has dug into some of those conversion metrics. And so I was curious, could you walk us through maybe some of the different reporting stats that you guys have at Podsights and how, buyers could maybe use that information to make more informed decision for podcast ad buying?

[00:10:35] Havilland Voss: [00:10:35] Yeah, of course. First of all, I think Podsights is uniquely positioned because we work with publishers brands and agencies. So we are just wanting to be as transparent, share as much data as possible. So we don't have any stake in the game of hiding any of the data. It helps us, it helps the podcasting space to release these benchmarks and give people [00:11:00] more awareness of what they can expect from a podcast campaign. So what we released the second benchmark report a couple of weeks ago for. Q3.

[00:11:12] And, we're starting to do this quarterly. The first one came out in July for Q2. And that first one, gave a lot of benchmarks related to conversion rates for site visits driving people to your website after listening to a podcast. As well as purchase conversion rates or lead conversion rates, those down funnel conversions that advertisers are tracking. The way that we released the down funnel conversion rates are as a percentage of attributed visitors. So those numbers are showing you how much traction you're getting, once you drive someone to the site, then you're getting these high conversion [00:12:00] rates of people making purchases or becoming a lead or downloading an app.

[00:12:04] So that was what the first report focused on the second report, we pulled those same metrics and shared them, just updated them based on the new campaigns that I've run since Q2. But also added a big section that was the main focus of this report and that was related to placements. How, where you place your ads, whether it's in pre-roll mid-roll or post roll, or a combination of those, what does that do for your conversion rates? And the biggest takeaway we found was that putting all three placements in an ad lead to higher conversion rates followed by two and then one. There's a little bit of nuances as to where the two, which placements the two sponsor in. [00:13:00] But basically overall sequential advertising is giving you those higher conversion rates.

[00:13:06] Heather Osgood: [00:13:06] So when you, say that, are you saying that an advertiser should, let's presume we've got an episode, should the advertiser appear in all three of those placements?

[00:13:18] So the same advertiser in both or in all of the pre, the mid and the post, and that's where you see the highest conversion rates.

[00:13:27] Havilland Voss: [00:13:27] Yeah. So it definitely depends on your goals. You will see the highest conversion rates out of if you do all three of those placements, but that's not to say that a single placement won't give you good results as well. So it definitely depends for some brands that might really not be in their budget or their strategy. But that is what we've seen through the data.

[00:13:51] Heather Osgood: [00:13:51] How interesting. I don't know of tons of advertisers who approach a buy like [00:14:00] that. I know that there are definitely podcasters out there who will, I always feel like it's they give the advertiser preview, right?

[00:14:10] So they welcome you to the show. And then they say, I'm so excited that this great company is sponsoring the show today and stay tuned maybe later on to hear a little bit more about them. And then maybe they'll do an in depth mid roll ad. And then at the end of the episode, they might say again, just want to give a shout out to our sponsors.

[00:14:29] Don't forget to use this, specific promo code or maybe they reiterate the offer. Is something like that really what we're talking about or are we talking about a full, minute long ad read in each of those locations?

[00:14:45] Havilland Voss: [00:14:45] Yeah, so I think it could be both, when. Advertisers set up their campaigns they are able to enter that. And we do have through the research tool access to hear what that. sounds like in an episode, [00:15:00] but at we haven't done yet is really dig into that. Is the copy something like you just described or is it something like in the beginning, like all three of those different ads are a story that they're building upon. Cause that creative could really be what's driving it. So that's something we want to be able to dig into more in the future because we don't have the best answer right now on why that is.

[00:15:26] It could be also, maybe all three of those were host read endorsements, as opposed to just, an ad that wasn't an endorsement. So there's definitely some other factors out there that, we know could contribute to this and will be interesting to look at in the future.

[00:15:47] Heather Osgood: [00:15:47] So I know that in terms of the conversion rates, that you really have taken a look at all of the campaigns that have run on the Podsights platform from beginning to current, [00:16:00] is that how you expect to always analyze the data as opposed to looking at just the campaigns that ran within a specific quarter?

[00:16:08] Havilland Voss: [00:16:08] Yeah. So for the next one, we'll start doing a rolling average. By then we'll have enough data for it to be complete. And then there won't be any variation of seasonality or, even right now, I guess there's pre COVID and post COVID. We'll have a more steady datasets. So I think that'll also be interesting to see how those results come out next quarter.

[00:16:35] Heather Osgood: [00:16:35] And did you see a big shift in conversion rates from the study that you put out in July of 2020 to the one that you put out most recently?

[00:16:44] Havilland Voss: [00:16:44] No. It was fairly steady. The conversion rates rose, a little bit for site visits, they rose, up 16%, which isn't a whole lot. They were pretty, close to similar for the down funnel [00:17:00] conversion rates.

[00:17:00] So I think that also shows us that it's a fairly robust benchmark that it's not wildly changing throughout these different quarters.

[00:17:12] Heather Osgood: [00:17:12] Yeah, I would agree. And can you tell us, if people are listening and they haven't actually had a chance to look at these benchmark studies, what kind of conversion rates, like what numbers are we talking about here?

[00:17:24] So if I were an, advertiser for instance, and I was going to run a campaign, receiving about a hundred thousand downloads within. In a month, let's say, what conversion rate would I expect to see? What would that translate into?

[00:17:40] Havilland Voss: [00:17:40] Yeah, so our average across all campaigns for site visits is 1.3%. And then we break it down as well by industry. And those range from 5% to 0.1%, a big range there. But if [00:18:00] you look at the report, you can see where your brand falls under which industry and get a more specific benchmark as well for your industry.

[00:18:10] Heather Osgood: [00:18:10] I'm curious. So I know that I, released a study in July as well, actually, about ad revenue from 2019. And they found the direct to consumer brands sold the most in the space. And then, I know health and wellness was number one within that direct to consumer space. Where you, did look at those categories at all, and maybe analyze the overlay to see where you seeing the same results and, do those direct to consumer health and wellness brands actually convert better. Is that why we see more and more of them in this space? Can you talk to us about that at all?

[00:18:48] Havilland Voss: [00:18:48] Yeah, so we did take a look at direct to consumer versus B2B brands. And we saw that direct to consumer converted, [00:19:00] 86% higher. But, the numbers for that is 1.84% for direct to consumer and then 0.98% for B2B. So just under 1% conversion rate for B2B is, still on par with digital conversion rates as well for advertising. So I think that's a good results as well. And I wouldn't want to scare anyone and B2B away from podcast advertising, just because D2C converts better. But yes, that is, those brands do tend to do a little bit better.

[00:19:37] Heather Osgood: [00:19:37] Yeah. Cool. Cool. If, people are listening and they're considering podcast to advertising, do you think that it is fair to say that these conversion rates, the average podcast advertiser could look to get? I, as we look at putting different campaigns together, as I mentioned so many companies, especially if they're new [00:20:00] into this space, they want to know what kind of output they could expect.

[00:20:04] So would you say based on your research and all of these different campaigns that you've run, that is a pretty reasonable expectation.

[00:20:13] Havilland Voss: [00:20:13] I would say it depends. I feel like we use this answer a lot when we're talking to clients. So if your conversion rate is a lot lower than that 1.3%, that's the average, I would also walk them through let's look at this. Your average frequency. Is that on par? Is it. Too high or too low, and looking at the reach as well in general. And also we talk about it in this study, larger campaigns tend to do better. It's common sense, the wider net you cast the better chance you're going to get for conversions.

[00:20:54] So there's definitely those other factors that go into a campaign. So [00:21:00] if, your campaign is really small and has a really low frequency and you're not seeing those conversion rates. I recommend that you think about the levers you can do to change the campaign strategy instead of just pulling out of podcasting completely. Cause there's a lot of different factors that go into it, different shows, audiences. So yeah, definitely use that as your baseline, but don't, let it scare you away if your campaign's not doing as well as you would hope.

[00:21:30] Heather Osgood: [00:21:30] I think it's so important that people test into the medium. And one of the things that I always feel is that, when we look at other forms of marketing especial, especially social, I think it's talked about constantly about the different tests we're going to run.

[00:21:45] And people always think about testing into these mediums, but then I feel oftentimes people will come to podcasts and they're like, I ran a campaign and it didn't work. So that must mean it's not as successful. And I think, yeah, but there are so many different variables. And [00:22:00] we have to look at all those variables and test for those to see how we can create success, because we know that there is great success to be had in podcast advertising. It's maybe just how restructuring the campaign to create those results, right?

[00:22:15] Havilland Voss: [00:22:15] Yes, totally agree.

[00:22:17] Heather Osgood: [00:22:17] Yeah. Yeah. Terrific. So I'm curious. one of the things that I talk about a lot is dynamic ad insertion, and how I really project that dynamic ad insertion will eventually dominate the space and be more prominent.

[00:22:35] have you found in your studies that dynamic ad insertion performs any differently than embedded reads?

[00:22:44] Havilland Voss: [00:22:44] So we've found that dynamic ad insertion converts slightly lower than, embedded. I think last time the number was embedded was twice as high of conversion rates. But I think Brigid, you had a [00:23:00] good, follow up to that. If you want to jump into it.

[00:23:02] Brigid Judge: [00:23:02] Yeah. I think you have to also take a look at since, Podsights birth, the, I suppose like the category of advertisers has been predominantly those direct to consumer advertisers. And so when you look at the set of data that we put out into our benchmark report, a lot of it was embedded.

[00:23:22]I also think that there's this again, it's a preconceived notion that dynamic ad insertion is not good. I don't, I think there's a lot of different ways that you can look at that. The, main thing is that it's host read.

[00:23:34] I think that's the most, one of the most important things. And, I don't know necessarily if this benchmark report is going to specifically highlight those, things, because an ad that's been dynamically inserted could be, a radio spot, which is obviously not one of the most recommended things, but, or it could be a host read ad and it's been beautifully stitched into the episode. To make it sound like it was embedded. and so it's just [00:24:00] interesting, I think, to look at it in that sense. I do think Heather you're right. I do have this hunch, that dynamic ad insertion at some point is going to, it's going, to become the big, the next big thing in a lot of ways.

[00:24:16] I think for sure for, especially for monetization, right? I think it allows for, publishers in the space to be able to sell more and also for quality control. I, think a lot of the, when, I was on the agency side, a lot of the things that were brought up was with like brand safety and, th these, things that always come up and so how, can we create an environment where, it isn't so scary for these newer advertisers to come in? Not sure if their host is going to go off the rails, but be able to create that environment where it's a trustworthy one. I think to tie this back to the benchmark report is that predominantly the data that we have pulled and the folks that we've been working with the longest are those DTC folks.

[00:24:59] It's just [00:25:00] so more so now within the last six months, nine months that we've seen some of the bigger brand awareness advertisers, like your financial services, your telecoms, the big, the bigger guys in the space. And everyone's approaching it a little bit differently. It would be interesting to see next year, maybe this time, or maybe even earlier what that looks like, DAI versus embedded.

[00:25:24] Heather Osgood: [00:25:24] Yeah. I would love to see that data and I agree with you. And I think it's what is so fascinating to me about it is that it's dynamic ad insertion is important for monetization, but I also think that it could deliver. In a really big way for advertisers. And my hunch is that as an industry, it's still so relatively new, even though about half of the podcasts out there are doing dynamic ad insertion.

[00:25:56] I, think it's new enough that we haven't tested [00:26:00] it out to say what formula works for dynamic ad insertion. And I agree I'm a total proponent for the host read dynamically inserted ad. And I think that is, inserting a radio ad is not the same thing as inserting a well-executed host right at like you said. But I also think that as an industry, if we know that it is coming and we also know that the advantages could be great, I think it's our jobs to figure out how do we make dynamic ad insertion, be as good as it can be?

[00:26:32] And what I always fall back on is that there is that frequency piece, right? So one of the downsides of podcast advertising, especially when it's an embedded situation is it's very slow moving, right? Because we don't know when people are hearing the ads. We don't know how many times they're hearing the ads.

[00:26:49] Like it could take months before you get that impression level to actually convert somebody to a customer. But with dynamic insertion, we have this ability with all of this frequency [00:27:00] to hit that same person, multiple times within a shorter period of time. So from my perspective, I think that we're almost missing out on a better opportunity to perfect that frequency and reach because we're, in some ways ignoring the advantages of dynamic ad insertion, and I'm really hopeful that we can challenge the industry.

[00:27:22] To develop ways that we can harness the power of dynamic insertion instead of, dismissing it as being, as you said, like just a bad choice or, something that's not a good way of going about doing ads. I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are about that.

[00:27:39] Brigid Judge: [00:27:39] I, for me, I think, I don't think either I don't, I think your baked in your classic ad and your dynamically inserted ad, I think that there's purposes for both. One of the things that I think is really interesting about DAI and one of the things that I experienced on the agency side was I worked with quite a few [00:28:00] entertainment.

[00:28:00] Advertisers and they have a very short window to deliver their message. I think this is a big one for your retail advertisers, especially around the holidays. I think if you want to see the space grow, there needs to be more, there needs to be more opportunities where those advertisers can come in and, flourish.

[00:28:19]There's, plenty of jingles that I think I've heard on TV and on the radio that are like super obnoxious. And, but you, know them and you know them by name and you know them by like their brand. And they want to try the space out and they want to reinvent themselves. They want to reinvent their own wheel in a sense. And so how can, we offer that in a more productive and efficient way. I do, think it's going to happen. It may happen more slowly than some of us may expect, or maybe some of us want. I think that the, balance between the two and I think over this next year, we're, I think is really going to be interesting for me to see where it goes and, just, see the different [00:29:00] approaches where we're already starting to see more folks move over to DAI, from the agency buying side of things. And, so I do, think it's really interesting. You're spot on, I think DAI is, going to be the future.

[00:29:13] Heather Osgood: [00:29:13] Yeah. It's so I feel like that's one of the best parts about being involved in the podcast industry is that it's like this evolving, unfolding, beautiful scene and we just kinda get to go along for the ride, but we also get to contribute and actively build to that industry.

[00:29:31] And it's just. It's. So to me it's so much fun to be part of because it's not, in the past I've worked in radio and newspaper and those are both awesome mediums, but there's not a lot of growing and changing in those areas. So it's really fun to be part of such a growing dynamic, industry.

[00:29:48]So now I wanted to transition and talk a little bit about privacy. With attribution tracking comes the privacy issue, right? Because, [00:30:00] and I think privacy is something that we all are becoming more aware of, every time something happens, in the digital space and this digital world that we live in and we are more and more aware of maybe how we're being tracked or how we're being watched.

[00:30:18] I think it's so funny to me always when I talk to friends about advertising and they'll say things like, yeah, like I looked up a pair of boots and then now I get all these boot ads or, forever, I have conversations with people about smart speakers. How they're listening to you. And then all of a sudden, maybe you were talking about going on a cruise and then the next day you get a cruise ad and you're like, this is creepy, right?

[00:30:41] Like people are watching you and they're targeting you for all these ads. And from an advertising standpoint, of course, that is so valuable to us because we want to know how can we target people who are interested in buying the products and services we're selling. That's the [00:31:00] equation.

[00:31:00] We, if you target the right people, you get the right results. So that is so important. and I also think the information that pod sites and, the competitors you have in the market, they really, you guys are really providing such valuable information because for the first time, in nearly five years of my selling podcast advertising, I can give people concrete numbers where I feel confident in them. I don't feel like I'm guessing, or maybe I'm piecing together the campaigns we've run. I can really look at data and I can count on that data, which for me is so valuable, but also privacy is important and we do want to be protective of that. I think one of the big issues that I hear brought up frequently is that.

[00:31:47] It's harder to opt in or out of audio because we're listening through these listening platforms and, we're pushing play and maybe listeners are [00:32:00] unaware of the ramifications of what that means. And, how do we safeguard against that? Because for me, I would like to think that it's not an either or, but it is, it is again, just how do we find a solution to maybe something that's a bit of an issue. so I'm curious if you guys can talk about, privacy around Podsights in particular and maybe how you, how you are tracking people and how that falls within the guidelines of privacy policies.

[00:32:33] Brigid Judge: [00:32:33] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:34] No, this is something that we talk about all the time with our brand partners. Our agency partners are always asking these questions and, I think we love having those conversations because one of the one of the main things about Podsights is that again, it's a transparent relationship between the brand and or agency with their publisher.

[00:32:53] You get a full view into, okay, this is what I bought. This is how it's delivering, and now we can all be on the same page. [00:33:00] And, podcasting is interesting, heather, we were slightly, we were talking about this earlier and how do you, what is podcasting, right? What, where does it fall under?

[00:33:10] What, channel? I seem to, I think it's in its own lane. It takes elements of digital. It takes the elements of audio offline. But one thing that podcasting is not is digital. There's not a lot of information that you can get from a podcast download. We don't have the digital luxury, I guess you could say, of following someone around the internet with the cookie, it just doesn't exist. We can't do it. We don't get a user identifier and those are things that we're seeing now change this year with, the various, the various updates to Google Chrome and even some of the iOS updates that we're, hearing about.

[00:33:52]You can, talk to digital about that one, but, that's, the reality, right? And the two pieces of data that we do get are [00:34:00] very minimal, right? Like we don't, we still don't have any idea who this person is. We don't know how much money they make, where they work, where they live really even.

[00:34:08]And, so, for that purpose, I think that there's, again, that preconceived notion that we have all of this information about people, but really it's, we work off of an IP address and a user agent. And, those two things alone, we just, we simply identify who the listener was from a household level.

[00:34:24] So it's really just talk when we talk about listeners, we're talking about households and, if you look at those, the two main privacy laws that exist today that we, we talk about, with our partners. GDPR and CCPA. Under GDPR we are recognized as a data processor and under CCPA, very similarly, a service provider, and both of which are compliant under those two laws.

[00:34:49] So we, one of the, I would say one of the biggest things that comes into conversation is the pixel on the client's website. We've come up with alternatives to [00:35:00] this. We use a standard JavaScript pixel, but we also worked with plenty of advertisers who opt into something more old school or, manual you could say. and that's totally fine too. We actually work with advertisers that don't even place a pixel on their website. That use us just simply for reporting and general understanding of how their campaign is delivering from a reach or frequency perspective.

[00:35:25] Location wise, where my impressions falling? Again, like talking about the geo-targeting and DAI that's another, big thing that, has an advantage with. And also overlap of your audience. if I buy X publisher and Y publisher, what does it look like when we stack those two audiences against each other, how many of the same listeners or households am I hitting? And so, there's a lot of ways that we can work with advertisers that may have that hesitancy. What we've found though, is that the advertisers who didn't opt in to the [00:36:00] pixel on their website right away eventually did.

[00:36:04] And they eventually said, Hey, this is actually something that we want to try out. We want to test out. And it took, a few months for them to get there, but we got there and, it's been smooth sailing since then. And I think that is a testament to just taking those steps back and saying, okay, what's important to you.

[00:36:21] How can we help you? under these specific laws and, how can we, make sure that you're comfortable with what we're doing? So I would say that's the biggest thing.

[00:36:32] Heather Osgood: [00:36:32] So I think from a brand perspective, obviously making sure that you are following your own, maybe values as a company when it comes to privacy and your privacy policies that you have set for your company that's so important to look at. From a listener perspective, do you think that podcasts listeners should be concerned that they are being tracked or that their act, [00:37:00] activity is being monitored?

[00:37:03] Brigid Judge: [00:37:03] That's funny. cause I'm a podcast listener myself, and I it's not something I really think about on a day to day. And I don't know if, Havilland, I don't know if you also listen to podcasts or Heather you as well. I think it's something to be aware of, but I don't necessarily think that it should take away from the enjoyment of your podcast. And I think there's so many different ways that you can listen now. You can listen on your computer, you can listen to a smart speaker, you can, listen on the subway on your phone and wherever you are. It's, definitely a tricky thing. And, but I think the way that we the structure and our methodology and attribution is not a necessarily a threat to a listener. Infact, it's it's not invasive in that sense. like, digital, right? Like you show up on, wherever and then [00:38:00] next thing you know, you're getting bombarded with banner ads and, that's something I think that, is, more of a concern to me than being a podcast

[00:38:08] listener.

[00:38:10] Heather Osgood: [00:38:10] And with the kind of the change and evolution of the cookie or the death of the cookie, is that going to impact Podsights or the attribution that's being done?

[00:38:24] Brigid Judge: [00:38:24] So it doesn't actually affect us because, it's not a part of our, methodology. We, don't, use third party cookies at all. I would say there may be some indirect effects, when some of these new laws come out, but it's still unclear at the time, or at least right now, it may affect the way that we map IP addresses. But other than that, it's, not going to directly affect the way that we do business now. This comes up with our, brand partners all the time. Even some publisher partners who just have questions and it's at this moment in time, [00:39:00] it's not going to directly affect the way that we do that we do business

[00:39:04] Heather Osgood: [00:39:04] Technology changes so rapidly every day. And I think the one thing that we all know is that what is working today and what we're using today, isn't necessary really what is going to work and be used tomorrow. But I also believe that we are very resourceful and that we will come up with solutions.

[00:39:21] So I do think, we all just have to roll with technology every day and see the developments and changes that happen. So I'm sure that the team at pod sites probably has a similar outlook. And of course, like you said, it doesn't sound like the alterations or changes in the cookie, will affect you at all, but as things develop, of course, there's that need to just be responsive to those developments.

[00:39:48] Brigid Judge: [00:39:48] Yeah, absolutely. It's an, ever changing world, but we're constantly trying to evolve and be better where we can. And I think that, the [00:40:00] beauty of the podcast industry is that it's not perfect, right?

[00:40:02] And there's so many different ways, so many to, approach it, to get into it and to use it as whether that's a growth tactic or simply just a brand awareness tactic, then reaching new people, who want to be delivered messages to, in a different environment. And we're here for it.

[00:40:19] We're here for it.

[00:40:20] Heather Osgood: [00:40:20] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So if someone is listening and they're interested in learning more about Podsights, maybe they're an advertiser or they are part of a marketing team and they'd like to research Podsights, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you guys

[00:40:36] Brigid Judge: [00:40:36] or you can just go to our website. P O D S I G H T

[00:40:44] And it is important to realize that it is pod sites like, insights and not S I T E I feel like a lot of times when I talk to people, they're like, I can't find it. I'm like you're spelling sites wrong, yeah. Yeah. Make sure you've got the right Podsights. And then Havilland. I know [00:41:00] that you, if you go to your website, I believe that you can put your information in and download your most recent report.

[00:41:06] Is that the case? Can you tell us where people can find that report? Yes.

[00:41:10] Havilland Voss: [00:41:10] It's

[00:41:14] Heather Osgood: [00:41:14] Perfect So if you're interested in getting your hands on that report, I highly recommend it. I feel like I, I email it out to half of the prospects that I talk to just because I think that it's so helpful for them to see in black and white something that's been out there.

[00:41:30] And one of the things you guys mentioned that I do think is so important is that you guys are a third party, right? You don't have a vested interest in any of this really, you're just that delayed data collection point. And you're able to collect that data and then deliver it and in a very comprehensive way, which is terrific. So we really appreciate that. Excellent.

[00:41:53] Brigid Judge: [00:41:53] Yeah.

[00:41:53] Heather Osgood: [00:41:53] Yeah. Thank you. You guys, for being on the show today, it's been great chatting with both of you and we'll talk again real soon.

[00:42:00] [00:42:00] Thank you.


Havilland VossProfile Photo

Havilland Voss

Data Analyst

Havilland works as a data analyst for Podsights. She enjoys digging through data to enhance Podsights reporting and to help optimize your advertising strategy. Before Podsights, Havilland did Market Intelligence & Strategy for WeWork. She also spent several years in tech consulting helping solve almost any kind of tech problem for clients.

Brigid JudgeProfile Photo

Brigid Judge

Director of Partnerships

Brigid works on the partnerships team at Podsights. As a former buyer, she helps brands, publishers, and agencies alike understand the value of transparent reporting and accurate attribution. Before Podsights, Brigid was the Digital Audio Investments Manager at Horizon Media. She holds a BM from Syracuse and sings the national anthem in front of thousands of people as a hobby.