Nov. 26, 2020

Take A Peek Behind The Podcast Analytics Curtain with Cameron Hendrix

Take A Peek Behind The Podcast Analytics Curtain with Cameron Hendrix

Cameron Hendrix, Co-Founder of Magellan AI, joins me to talk about how his company has become a powerhouse in the podcast industry and their strategies behind collecting data. Magellan AI captures all ads, whether host-read or pre-recorded, baked-in...

Cameron Hendrix, Co-Founder of Magellan AI, joins me to talk about how his company has become a powerhouse in the podcast industry and their strategies behind collecting data.

Magellan AI captures all ads, whether host-read or pre-recorded, baked-in or dynamically inserted, and classifies ads by podcast content, position, and strategy.

Using machine learning to process hundreds of thousands of podcast episodes, Magellan AI has created the world's largest database of podcast advertising data – covering activity by 19,000 brands across over 30,000 podcasts.


This transcript has not been edited.

[00:00:29] Heather Osgood: [00:00:29] Hello, and welcome to the Podcast Advertising Playbook. I'm your host, Heather Osgood. And I'm very excited to have Cameron Hendrix from Magellan AI on the show today. I don't know if Cameron realizes this, but he's one of the first people that I met in the podcast space back in the day. And, I'm just super excited to have him on the show today. Cameron's been doing some really amazing things. He and his team at Magellan in the podcast ad space. Welcome to the show, Cameron. 

[00:00:59] Cameron Hendrix: [00:00:59] Hi, [00:01:00] thanks for having me. 

[00:01:01] Heather Osgood: [00:01:01] Cameron, I was hoping we could start by having you just tell us a little bit about exactly what Magellan is. If you're in the podcast ad space, you probably know Magellan. I would say it's a fairly well-recognized company, but if you are somebody maybe outside of the podcast ad space, or you're just thinking about getting into the podcast advertising world, you may not know about Magellan. So can you tell us a little bit about what your company does?

[00:01:27] Cameron Hendrix: [00:01:27] Sure. So we are a podcast media planning platform. You can think about us as a resource for brands and agencies that are looking to understand more about the podcast space and really evaluate all the different podcasts out there. We provide, dataset and some analytics tools that allow you, that allow buyers to do that.

[00:01:47] And then for, immediate sellers, we provide tools that allow them to really understand like what buyers are looking for. What they bought in the past. Our data is [00:02:00] really built on top of like competitive intelligence. It's really understanding like what's happening in the market and really being the most accurate reflection of what the podcast market or podcast advertising market is today.

[00:02:11] Heather Osgood: [00:02:11] I feel like that to me is one of the most exciting things. How many years have you been in business? Has it been like four?

[00:02:19] Cameron Hendrix: [00:02:19] We've been at this for about four years. Yeah, four years and change. And then about three years in the podcast space. So we started tracking data in the podcast space in September of 2017. 

[00:02:29] Heather Osgood: [00:02:29] Okay. Okay. So to me, really what your company does, that's amazing is that you're a reflection of exactly what is happening and because the podcast ad space can be so fragmented because of the independent nature of it. It can be challenging, especially from somebody that's looking on the outside, they're really unaware, maybe unaware of what exactly is happening.

[00:02:54] With Magellan, you're able to track and see who is advertising in this space. How much [00:03:00] they're spending. Which podcasts they're advertising on. What are some other things I know that you mentioned a couple of other different things, but what are some other things that people could use the platform for?

[00:03:11] Cameron Hendrix: [00:03:11] Yeah. I think, trends have been a big thing. We started out with just tracking spot data. Like you could just see, here are the ads that this advertiser has run, that's now evolved into spend and I would say trends more broadly. So you can start seeing, like we allow, folks to actually get some insight into which podcast advertisers are renewing on. What podcasts are they repeatedly buying? If it's a brand awareness company, what kind of flighting do they run? What ad creative do they run? So you can really get into the weeds on the core technology itself is just really getting going into an episode of a podcast and picking up ads, whether they're hosts read or prerecorded, the machine itself, it doesn't really need any kind of indication as to what ad is already there. It's actually already able to just go in and recognize the ad.

[00:03:57] And we just do that. We have over a million ads in our [00:04:00] database and we do that for the top 3000 podcasts in the U S today. we also do that for, let's see, three other markets. So the UK, Canada, and Australia, 

[00:04:10] Heather Osgood: [00:04:10] How do you track the top 3000 podcasts? what's your definition of the top?

[00:04:15] Cameron Hendrix: [00:04:15] Yeah, it's always a controversial, question. So, I'm glad you asked. So we, look at Apple podcast rankings as like our indicator for the index of podcasts that we track. We're, pretty agnostic as to what exact, what, which podcasts we're tracking. We found Apple Podcasts to be a pretty accurate reflection of what is popular at a given time.

[00:04:35] There are plenty of stories out there about publishers and who are very creative in finding ways to rise in the ranks on Apple Podcasts. and we haven't really involved that like certainly. does affect, like whether we track the podcast or not, we haven't found that we're tracking podcasts that are surprising.

[00:04:55] We're typically finding that we're finding and tracking podcasts that are, [00:05:00] really larger shows, at the top end. And then when you get closer to the top 3000, you do have more niche shows. And we track that and we pick up those as well. Yeah, today the top 3000 is based on like Apple Podcast data.

[00:05:14] And then of course, if we know that a publisher is really selling out inventory on a show, we of course like we'll track that show as well.  

[00:05:21] Heather Osgood: [00:05:21] Yeah, I think that it's great that you track the top 3000 because to me. It seems as though oftentimes people track the top 200 and that's great information, but the top 200 is very different than the bottom, of that 3000.

[00:05:38] So like you mentioned, those top shows are going to be really big shows and  probably a lot of escalate, even maybe guests, some of their advertisers, but the bottom 3000 or the, the bottom of that, those are people where they're probably, they probably have more obscure advertisers. And I think it's so important for us to look at the entire podcast industry and see the [00:06:00] trends across to all of them, because we do have this group of direct response advertisers that do tend to dominate a lot of the ads space, but who else is there? And to me, when we look at the health of the industry and the growth of the industry, those different pieces are the important elements for us to consider. What are your thoughts about that? 

[00:06:20] Cameron Hendrix: [00:06:20] Yeah, so super interesting that a lot of the top podcasts, a lot of the larger podcasts as it were, end up being pretty expensive as well. or they end up being like, so in demand that you can't get on the podcast, in some cases, if you're blocked out, let's say for an advertiser, it's blocked out by a competitor. What we actually see is a lot of advertisers who're testing how smaller podcasts before they graduate into bigger shows.

[00:06:45] That was why we continue to expand our index. We actually started at the top 200 back in September of 2017 and then we continued to expand based on the fact that we were still seeing a lot of advertisers just start for the first time at these small shows [00:07:00] and then really ramp up spending when they were starting to get into the bigger shows represented by larger networks that knew sure we all would know the names of.

[00:07:11] Heather Osgood: [00:07:11] Yeah, that's, interesting. And you were talking about really advertisers, being able to see the different podcasts that are being renewed. And I think that's an important piece too, because if a podcast is getting a lot of renewals, that typically means that it's, been pretty successful.

[00:07:30] So using your platform, they're able to really see these trends, not only with the advertisers, but also with podcasts. That I think are pretty important. In your experience, what does that renewal piece really look like and what does that reflect? 

[00:07:44] Cameron Hendrix: [00:07:44] Yeah. So we look at the renewal rate as, the number of like months that an advertiser appears on a show.

[00:07:52] So when we think about renewal rate, we define that as an advertiser has spent at least three months, running on a specific podcast. [00:08:00] it's there, I guess we, always caveat this for our partners. You know that we don't have a crystal ball. We don't see every contract that, an advertiser signs with a publisher.

[00:08:09] And we certainly don't know there are plenty of reasons that are good reasons that are unrelated to the podcast itself as to why an advertiser may not continue running a spot on a particular podcast. So we always caveat renewal rate with that, but what we look at is literally just the brands that are spending at least three months on a given podcast and what the overall proportion of that looks like, across a given show. 

[00:08:33] So you will see some shows that have, 70% to 80% renewal rates, or what that really says is like, seven out of ten advertisers are continuing to run on that podcast for at least three months.

[00:08:47] That is probably more relevant from an advertising perspective for direct response just because, obviously, like direct response advertisers are putting dollars where. Dollars work. Brand awareness campaigns are completely [00:09:00] different of course, and based on a wholly different set of objectives.

[00:09:03] But yeah, the renewal rate is something that we found is like really useful for advertisers just to understand how a given show is performing in the market. 

[00:09:12] Heather Osgood: [00:09:12] I think, even in the case of brand awareness that knowing that a show has gotten a renewal rate and has been successful for direct advertisers, that does also mean it's a great place for brand advertising because, oftentimes, although the goal might not be to produce specific trackable conversions, you still want to know that those dollars are being spent in a place where that audience is a very responsive audience and is likely to convert at some level. So that's really interesting. 

[00:09:44] When you look at the different segments of advertising, are you tracking embedded ad reads and dynamically inserted, or are you just tracking embedded?

[00:09:55] Cameron Hendrix: [00:09:55] We track both. And the way we think about dynamic insertion is it's really a [00:10:00] sampling problem for us. So our software, plugs into an RSS feed. As a new episode is published, you will download a copy of that episode, for example. What we think about with dynamic insertion is, of course, for context, that would allow a publisher to let's say, sell on an impressions basis. So the first million impression goes to advertiser A, the second million impressions goes to advertiser B. And so what we actually will do with a given podcast episode is we'll sample it multiple times in order to capture the diversity in the ads that were being injected. And we spent a bunch of time at the end of 2019 thinking about this problem, because it was becoming more obvious in the industry that just big baked-in ads that are embedded in the episode and completely indistinguishable from the content, were becoming fewer and farther between.

[00:10:50] And it's also worth highlighting that, dynamic insertion is really more of a technology rather than a like type of ad. It's you know, a host read [00:11:00] ad can still be dynamically inserted. And so we pick up plenty of dynamically inserted host read ads, as we sample across the space. 

[00:11:07] Heather Osgood: [00:11:07] Yeah, I love the way that you described that, because that is one of the comments that I try to make over and over again, is that dynamic insertion can still serve a host read ad.

[00:11:16] It doesn't have to be prerecorded. And I think unfortunately, a lot of people use that phrase, dynamic insertion as being synonymous with a pre produced recorded ad. When in fact it can be many different things and it's just the technology piece of the pie, right? So that's a really good way of, naming it.

[00:11:35] Are you seeing, based on your research, I know the IAB and their report that they came out with in July saw that about 50% of podcasts for doing embedded ad reads and about 50% we're doing dynamically inserted. Is that what you're seeing as well? 

[00:11:50] Cameron Hendrix: [00:11:50] I think we, ended up seeing, we actually did refresh on his stat, every now and then we look back at the last few months and we say, here are all the episodes of podcasts we sampled, what [00:12:00] proportion of them are using dynamic insertion. And it's also not to get too technical, but the way we look at that figure out dynamic insertion, you could of course, look at the host.

[00:12:10] We don't really look at the host as much cause plenty of hosts offer dynamic insertion technology, but there's still no way of knowing if a podcast actually uses it. Instead what we do is we look at the variation in ad load on different copies of the same episode. And that helps us understand whether if a podcast is literally injecting new ads, like the only way we can figure it out, if they're using dynamic insertion is to actually see if they're injecting additional ads and they're changing the episode in that way.

[00:12:37] So when we've done the math, like about, at the beginning of, I think for podcast movement in Los Angeles earlier this year at PM Evolutions, we did a presentation and one of the stats that we had shared was, about two thirds of the podcasts that we had sampled in the prior three months, use dynamic insertion. Meaning that they were varying ad load in the ad delivery that we were [00:13:00] measuring. Fast forward that to today, we did this analysis and looked at the last few months and found that about 55% of podcasts were using dynamic insertion with variations in ad load. I think like we're a little bit higher than the IAB metric. But it's worth keeping in mind that insertion and embedded ads, again, host read ads can be embedded. So it's hard to say, or, dynamically inserted. So it's hard to say like  exactly where the IBS numbers are coming from. 

[00:13:27] Heather Osgood: [00:13:27] Actually, as you were saying that it was like, where are they getting their numbers from? I don't know that would be a good thing to look into.

[00:13:34] and what about the platform? Does it track programmatically inserted ads? So are you, getting those prerecorded ad messages as well? 

[00:13:42] Cameron Hendrix: [00:13:42] We do pick up those. We are currently going through a research phase where we're trying to figure out, like, how can we better surface, trends in programmatic buys to our clients.

[00:13:54] Because we definitely have seen there are a lot more advertisers that test out the market by doing [00:14:00] like a run of network buy, which isn't necessarily the same as programmatic. And then of course there's the true programmatic buy where I'm taking my radio ad creative and I am jamming that through, into a podcast, and that's getting served on like remnant inventory. So we do pick up all of those. We try to tag them differently and it's interesting. We, do see even some radio shares will upload their radio share wit spots that have not been taken out and they'll inject additional ads for podcasts.

[00:14:35] So it's, you're getting like double whammy there  And so, we've seen like some radio, some shows that have a lot of ads based on that. 

[00:14:42] Heather Osgood: [00:14:42] Yeah. Yeah. I have definitely experienced that myself as a listener where I'm like, this is obviously a repurposed radio program and they're putting additional ads in.

[00:14:51] So it does feel a little bit like a double whammy. So in terms of, what Magellan produces, I know that you guys do a great [00:15:00] job of constantly putting out different articles and different things for the industry and people at large. How much information can someone get if they're not a customer of Magellan from the platform?

[00:15:12] Cameron Hendrix: [00:15:12] Yeah. so we've done a couple of things, we were, and we're actually like moving. We'd started out, as many companies do in 2017, with our blog on We're currently porting that over to our own website, but what that's going to do is allow us to have a central repository for all of the research that we produced.

[00:15:31]Historically, our model has been to produce like a white paper or a blog post and distribute it, but not necessarily have a single source of truth where you can go and see all of the research that we provide. We're going to be adding to our website and basically an extended catalog of all of the free research that we do produce. In terms of just, a description of what that is, we do pieces on like the election. Like last week where it [00:16:00] was much more based on what's happening in the market. Here's what we're seeing related to this specific topic. More consistently around the middle of every month. So this week we're there this month, we're targeting, I believe the week of November 16th, we released a spend data.

[00:16:15] And so that looks at spend for top advertisers. What's interesting as well is we looked at the top 15 for free, and we also look at the top movers and shakers for free. And we've defined movers and shakers as anyone who's really increasing their ad buy. And, it's a really good resource for, both, advertisers that are looking to understand who is spending more in the market and publishers looking to understand who's spending more than the market.

[00:16:40] And that's something that we publish and make available every single month.

[00:16:44] That's awesome. And do you track whether these advertisers are working with agencies and which agencies they're working with? Are you able to see that? 

[00:16:54] We don't surface that data for customers today. Part of the reason for that is because [00:17:00] many of the agencies are our partners as well.

[00:17:02] And we have, certainly, the confidentiality agreements with each of them and with each of our partners really, that prevent us from just taking all of the things we know and throwing them in the platform. It's definitely like a challenge and an interesting problem in this space because, brands do move from in-house to working with an agency to in-house and, it's sometimes between agencies. Yeah, I think that's a perennial problem in the media space overall. Certainly. 

[00:17:31] Heather Osgood: [00:17:31] Yeah. for sure. I think we see that, a lot. Do you find that you're seeing more agencies moving into the space? I know at True Native, I've been surprised at how many agencies are looking at podcasts advertising, who maybe haven't done it before, or even, I feel like I'm encountering more and more agencies where like they're, they're doing a significant amount of podcasts ad spending. So I think traditionally having been in the industry now for [00:18:00] several years, there's been a cluster of, I don't know, four or five agencies that have done all, especially a lot of the direct response ad placements. And it feels like that group of agencies is getting larger. Are you've seen that from your perspective? 

[00:18:14] Cameron Hendrix: [00:18:14] I think there are. Especially a lot of agencies that were familiar with other audio channels, like radio or streaming, who are looking at podcasts a little bit more seriously now that the market's bigger. A lot of times podcasts can be a good channel for agencies to add when they're trying to cross sell additional media spend into a advertiser or from capture additional media spend, from an advertiser.

[00:18:40] And so we certainly see plenty of both agencies that are new in the space that are trying to get a handle on the market, come to us to understand so that they can potentially spin up their own business development efforts, and capture some podcast spend. And we also see, agencies just in general, like picking up, the podcast space because it's a valuable channel [00:19:00] for their existing client base.

[00:19:02] Heather Osgood: [00:19:02] Yeah. That's, amazing. Cameron, I feel like you have such a unique perspective of the podcast ad space, because it's like you get the bird's eye view. And like you said, you have all of the insider knowledge that maybe not everyone is as aware of. I'm always like, If I could peek behind that curtain, that would be fun.

[00:19:22] But so I'm curious. What are your thoughts about where the podcast industry is headed? Given all of the information and then I'll let you have. 

[00:19:31] Cameron Hendrix: [00:19:31] Yeah. I think, yeah, I won't belabor the point too much about growth, but I think like we've been certainly lucky enough to have come into this space, like in 2017.

[00:19:43] When I think, Oh, I think everyone says this no matter when they start in an industry, but they're like, Oh, the industry was so small then. And it really wasn't actually a reasonable size. But, the industry has grown really rapidly and I think it's been. I, personally, it's the first [00:20:00] industry I've worked in that has felt like it's grown so rapidly and also been so open along the way.

[00:20:07] And that was one of the things I was so pleased at. Early in this space is that I was able to, start talking to really important people in the podcast space. So I think overall, all, that's just a growth in this space, everyone talks about getting to the billion dollar mark. There's plenty of opportunity at today to get, between now and a billion. I think there's also plenty of opportunity after billion. I don't really see a market size as like the sole kind of like headline.

[00:20:36] What I do think where you start getting a little bit more interesting is, we've started to hear rumblings more in the market around like platform wars. Certainly like Spotify, coming into the market. You know do doing a deal with Joe Rogan. Making a bit of a more of a splash with some of the technology they're bringing into the space, I think will change the, maybe, the level of data [00:21:00] that's available to like advertisers and agencies and publishers as well.

[00:21:06] And I also, I think the platform wars are at their very beginnings. I don't know that we've really seen Apple get into it. Obviously Apple is huge in this space. I don't think we've seen a very targeted response yet to Spotify. will, remains to be seen if that's something that will be a priority for Apple.

[00:21:23] But I do think, I think other platforms that are outside of the podcast space are going to start noticing podcasts work a lot. And I was thinking the other day, like you could see, imagine like Facebook, for example, leveraging their audience and you're trying to create a platform that competes with Spotify or Apple, because there is a huge amount of, or will be in certainly a huge amount of ad dollars, going to this space. And audio is a unique medium that allows one person to connect with another. yeah, I think to me, like one of the things I'm really excited to see play out is like the, platform wars and [00:22:00] see what other entrants come into this space, because I think that will just push everyone else to change their level of performance.

[00:22:07] Heather Osgood: [00:22:07] Do you think that when those bigger companies come, do you think that it takes away some of the independent indie kind of, I don't know, just the feel of the industry. Do you think that those big dollars in those big companies are going to corporatize the space? 

[00:22:28]Cameron Hendrix: [00:22:28] It's always a risk. I generally look at it as a good thing. One of the things that's challenging about this space is there are so many layers between an advertiser and a listener in terms of sales representation, the person producing the podcast, like the host of the podcast. The hosting company that  sends out the ad. It's quite complex basically to get from the advertiser to the listener. And so I think one of the, of course, the value prop that, like a platform brings to the market is having a lot more of those technology pieces in one place.

[00:23:00] [00:23:00] And I just, I think that is going to really cause the quality of data to increase. And I think with quality data, you're going to get bigger advertising dollars going towards this space. A rising tide lifts all boats. So I think there will be plenty of small podcasts that constantly do you want to maintain complete control, creative control and over their podcast.

[00:23:24] And I think there will always be a place for them in the market. I don't think they're going to get pushed out by the fact that Spotify wants people to listen to podcasts in their app or, other competitors come into the market and want to do the same. so I guess I worry a little bit less about corporatization just because I see like the opportunity from working with larger and larger advertisers, and who are putting more and more dollars towards this space.

[00:23:49] Heather Osgood: [00:23:49] Yeah.

[00:23:50] Cameron Hendrix: [00:23:50] Talk to a true person who works in advertising. 

[00:23:54] Heather Osgood: [00:23:54] Yeah. I definitely see your perspective. I'm curious, and I always just have [00:24:00] to ask people this because it seems like such an important topic right now. One of the issues that I have seen in podcast advertising for a long time is that data right.

[00:24:09] Are all the metrics. And, like you said, and I think that you outlined that very well. There is a big divide. A big space between that advertiser and that listener. Where do you feel like privacy policies play into that? Is that something I know that's not necessarily something Magellan, in particular, looks at, but when we talk about data that is also connected to individuals and their privacy. Do you think that privacy issues are a concern for the podcast industry?

[00:24:39] Cameron Hendrix: [00:24:39] I think they could become one. I've well, I think the good news is podcasting is becoming well. I don't, we're not in anywhere near mature, hopefully as an industry, right? Hopefully we get to, radio level of maturity at like $20, billion in ad spend. So podcasting is, let's say coming of age, at a time when there are [00:25:00] protections in place, like GDPR and CCPA, and more movements to ensure the privacy of their privacy rights are maintained. That's really not the case for I'm trying to think of that to the case where like any other media market, maybe. OTT on TV or over the top. I think the reality is like the podcasting is going to have to grow up in this world where GDPR and CCPA do make demands on podcasting hosts, on technology companies that play in ad serving.

[00:25:37] And so I do think that, the onus is going to be on the industry to respond well and treat, listeners the way that they demand to be treated from a perspective of privacy. But I just think that the disruption from privacy, the fact that we have some level of control over our data, is actually effecting like other media markets, [00:26:00] way more than podcasting is going to be effective because we're just, it's a fact of life now.

[00:26:05] Like we're already, there. And the podcasting is still so new. There's still so much growth that could happen that, I think the it's not going to be, I don't, see it as like a huge barrier. And then of course, like I say that not having we, don't touch listener data, individually, and that's a very deliberate, in our, the previous business we were working on required a lot of data and certainly required a lot more privacy provisions. That was before, we started this like focused in the podcast space. And that was, not fun. 

[00:26:39] Heather Osgood: [00:26:39] Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. and I think that to your point, I'm curious what your thoughts are. If it doesn't necessarily have to be an either or. It doesn't have to be, we have data or we have privacy, We could have privacy and data, and that's what we need. I think, and I'm curious what you think, in order to really move the [00:27:00] industry forward. 

[00:27:01] Cameron Hendrix: [00:27:01] Yeah, I think it's, I think a lot of it, when you look at the rules and regulations, they're often not saying you can't use data. They're really saying you have to know where the data lives.

[00:27:11] And there are certain things like the right to be forgotten If someone calls you up and says, I want to erase my data, you can't just say, we've erased it in our database, but, Oh, we had these 20 vendors that, we're storing a copy of this data.

[00:27:25] I think that is one of the it's. it just, I think it forces companies to be aware of what are all of the tentacles where data gets stored. And how do we like make sure that, if we do get a request to delete some of that data or as part of a regular, like every regularly scheduled, like cleaning of this data, we should be, cleaning it at all these different places instead of just like our database.

[00:27:50] I think that's like the big, a big advantage in the pond for privacy law in general, is that that is it's just forcing companies to be a [00:28:00] lot more aware about where stuff lives. 

[00:28:02] Heather Osgood: [00:28:02] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So when you look at trends and growth in podcast advertising, do you see dynamically inserted ads is becoming something that is going to be important to this space? Or do you think that we'll always retain that embedded ad read? 

[00:28:20] Cameron Hendrix: [00:28:20] I think, I do think that mimic insertion makes a lot of sense it for listening, but honestly, almost any podcast, especially any podcast that has, a back catalog. cause one of the main things that dynamic insertion can do for podcasters really open up the ability for them to monetize impressions on old episodes, with new ad inventory or new ads.

[00:28:43] I personally like whenever I'm talking to a podcast, I think there's, I generally advise folks that like use dynamic insertion, if you can, or at least prepare for it. I don't, I think there's, you have to like any, small business. If you're a podcaster, you have to be practical about [00:29:00] like, when it makes sense to really start selling impressions on your back catalog or when it makes sense to start selling on an impression basis in general.

[00:29:07] But I think in general, there's no reason why, a podcast or shouldn't be going into this thinking that, I'm producing content and the content is for the benefit of my listener. And, I'm also going to produce ads that will be injected at various points in the episode. And I may record those ads and I'm going to have a high quality recording that really engages my listener in the way I want them to be engaged.

[00:29:28] But ultimately, yeah, I think more, the bigger net works are almost all using dynamic insertion with a few exceptions already. And then I think the smaller podcasts will as folks graduate and go from production in-house, to starting to involve more people. That's where I think it makes a lot more sense to you to start including dynamic insertion, in the tech stack.

[00:29:52] Heather Osgood: [00:29:52] Excellent. I totally agree with you. It's interesting to hear that perspective from you. In terms of the number [00:30:00] of new advertisers entering the space. I don't know if that's a number you have memorized, but are we seeing a lot of new advertisers in the space each month or each time you guys pull your reports?

[00:30:11] Cameron Hendrix: [00:30:11] Yeah. yeah, I think, we look at it as like new brands or products running. I don't have the number in front of me, but I do think it's typically on the top 3000. I want to say it's in the, 100 to one 50 new brands or products every week. I want to say that's a little low even, which is a lot. I think one of the things I was stunned about

[00:30:33] Pretty early on in 2017 when we were just like selling a spreadsheet, and had data that we were collecting on podcasts. I was convinced that I was like, all these new brands are popping up on podcasts that can't last forever. The difference is now we're seeing, P&G has advertised many different products in the space already.

[00:30:52] so we do see new product lines though from P&G being launched in podcasts all the time. And we see new shows from Netflix [00:31:00] being launched in podcasts all the time. So that's included in that kind of brands or product number that we quote. But, yeah the growth in this space has continued like there hasn't been a week in recent memory where I've been like, I'm worried that there aren't enough new things happening.

[00:31:20] Heather Osgood: [00:31:20] It is totally true. Yeah. But this is a good way. We are never at a shortage for new things happening in the podcast space. That's true for sure. In terms of new advertisers, if somebody were listening to this and maybe they were, a CMO or on a marketing team, maybe they work for an agency, and they had never done podcast advertising before. Would you have any recommendations for them about where to get started or how to approach or think about the space? 

[00:31:53] Cameron Hendrix: [00:31:53] Yeah. Call us now. That's one way to get started. We're happy to help. [00:32:00] I think, yeah, I think that's actually the answer. We can definitely provide advertisers and agencies who are new to the space with just a map of the space.

[00:32:08] I think so often we see advertisers that we talk to after spending a little time in the space, like trying to get a grip on what's going on, will go to things like you go to public resources, like Spotify charts or Apple charts, and trying to understand like what's happening in the space based on that.

[00:32:25] And what's popular. We provide a map that lets people figure out like where their competitors are where they should be provide some insight into what shows are all about and which advertisers target those shows and all that. So, yeah, like we certainly work a lot with newer advertisers, who are just coming to market for the first time.

[00:32:47] And, yeah, that's, my pitch. 

[00:32:50] Heather Osgood: [00:32:50] I think he makes such a good point because I feel like, and I know I've said this before, right? A lot of times in this space, it feels like there's not a central receptacle [00:33:00] for all of the information. And if you're coming in. And I think because so many advertisers are so accustomed to things being really laid out, or, buying ads on a platform where everything is really straightforward.

[00:33:13] If you've been buying social ads and now you want to jump in and start buying podcast ads, it doesn't feel like there's a clear path. And I do think that it is pretty awesome that Magellan, essentially is a roadmap, if you want to learn about the space, looking at what's happening and the information that Magellan provides you is giving you that roadmap, just to see peek in all the corners and see what's happening, so that you can create a good plan.

[00:33:40] Cameron Hendrix: [00:33:40] And we, to get further on that, once you've got that plan in place, one of the, we, it is a huge difference when you're coming from a different media and you're looking to press buttons and execute a campaign and you can't really do that. One of the features that we rolled out, that's proven popular among our advertiser partners, [00:34:00] especially, is what we call it, get introduced. So we will connect advertisers and agencies using Magellan, directly with the publisher, it's good for a few different things. One, if you're an advertiser, like taking your program in house, then you can quickly ramp up connections to, both network large and small. There are also lots of popular podcasts that maybe have like niche content or niche audiences that make a lot of sense for a brand. But, it's very hard to track down, who actually does the ad sales. And so we know a lot of that stuff because we worked in the industry for so long and have been able to, make connections between publishers and advertisers. Just to really facilitate that transaction. But it's, it is interesting to see, like we're, taking it like a little bits at a time, like some of the little bites of the Apple at a time.

[00:34:52] First we started with, which is like the market map of understanding, what was happening in the space overall. and now we've [00:35:00] offered publishers or advertisers, ways to connect directly with publishers. Certainly trying to make it a little bit more like that Facebook experience, Facebook advertising experience, even though it's still very far away from that.

[00:35:12] Heather Osgood: [00:35:12] Yeah. Yeah. So youIactually will someone couldn't go on your platform and let's say, if they decide they wanted to advertise on Joe Rogan's podcast, they could find out how to do that. They could connect with the right company to buy ads on his podcast. 

[00:35:25] Cameron Hendrix: [00:35:25] Exactly. and then they can evaluate all the metrics that we have on Joe Rogan and listened to ad reads that he's done in the past.

[00:35:32] and ultimately yet connect directly with that publisher so that they can negotiate a deal. 

[00:35:37] Heather Osgood: [00:35:37] That's awesome. Very, cool, resource for sure. Cameron, thank you so much for being on the show today. If people are interested in learning more about you, maybe getting a copy of some of the reports that you guys produce, or if they're interested in exploring the platform more, how can they get in touch with you?

[00:35:53] Cameron Hendrix: [00:35:53] Yeah, just Can also Google search [00:36:00] Magellan AI. We buy our keywords. Should be able to click through there. Yeah, and we have plenty of research that is available on the website. If you click the research button, that's all free. You can also sign up for updates so that you'll get an alert, whenever we push out a new piece.

[00:36:16] so yeah, the website is probably the best place to go. 

[00:36:20] Heather Osgood: [00:36:20] Awesome. thank you so much for being on the show. It was great to hear all of your insights and I'm excited as well as you are to see where, Magellan goes and the podcast industry in general. 

[00:36:31] Cameron Hendrix: [00:36:31] Wonderful. thank you so much.